Feedback On First Biab Ag + No-chill

[boobiedazzler]

doing my first Urn BIAB No Chill tomorrow with any luck, can I get some feedback on the following please?

American (Style) Pale Ale,

32 litres starting volume of water

Mash temp 66 degress for one hour, mash out 75 degrees for 15 minutes

grain bill of
4.5 kilograms Ale grain - of which two kilos will be smashed to smithereems in a food processor, the rest is a typical crack.
350 grams Munich grain
500 grams Wheat grain


This will be no-chilled, with the final wert going into a 20L cube barrel. So the hopping adjustments taking this into account

hop bill of
10g Ringwood 11 alpha, 15g Amarillo 7.5 alpha for 30 minutes - this is the 60 minute addition, if that makes sense
10g Amarillo 7.5 alpha into the cube before hot wert is transferred - this is the flavour addition, replacing a 20-30 minute addition
10g Amarillo 7.5 alpha dry hopped four days after pitching

 

[MarkBastard]

10g Amarillo 7.5 alpha into the cube before hot wert is transferred - this is the flavour addition, replacing a 20-30 minute addition

I prefer to chuck the hops in last myself. That way the aroma can't escape.

 

[glaab]

I don't BIAB or no-chill but it looks a bit light on in the hops dept to me for an APA, I usually get 4-5g/ litre
in there :beerbang:

 

[argon]

+1 for the comment being light on the hops... this is what we get if we chuck it in Beersmith

Assuming the hop additions at 60min = 40mins and 20mins = Cube hop (this what i use and get good results for No chill)

Also assume the batch size of 23L

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: boobiedazzler APA
Brewer: boobiedazzler
Asst Brewer:
Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Boil Size: 26.33 L
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated Color: 4.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 16.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
4.50 kg Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 84.11 %
0.50 kg Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 9.35 %
0.35 kg Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 6.54 %
10.00 gm Amarillo [7.50 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -
10.00 gm Pride of Ringwood [11.00 %] (60 min) Hops 11.3 IBU
10.00 gm Amarillo [7.50 %] (20 min) Hops 4.7 IBU


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 5.35 kg
----------------------------

I'd be increasing the POR to 20g and increasing the Amarillo Cube hop to 30g. You'll end up with about 36IBU. Colour and OG is all good.

 

[argon]

I prefer to chuck the hops in last myself. That way the aroma can't escape.

also +1 on MB... poke em in there right at the end just before you seal up the cube pushing all the air out.

 

[mxd]

With the hops, the NC, I think is around 15 to 20 minutes,

so if you do your first at 45 minutes, then as others have said pump em up a bit
Or try just 25 -30g of POR at 45 for bittering, then the 15 Amarillo at 15, 15 Amarillo at cube, then 20 Amarillo in the fermenter.

 

[QldKev]

If your after a APA I would use more Munich, a less wheat and a lot more hops.

Also why change the bittering hops from 60mins? even with No chill you will only get a couple of % difference.

QldKev

 

[argon]

If your after a APA I would use more Munich, a less wheat and a lot more hops.

Also why change the bittering hops from 60mins? even with No chill you will only get a couple of % difference.

QldKev

+1 for more Munich... I like my apas about 9srm or so. More %
Munich will get you there.
no real need to adjust the 60 min addition as the difference is quite small. I just make adjustments when I use beersmith as the results get pretty close.

 

[boobiedazzler]

my understanding is that the 60 minute addition should be cut back during the boil, to compensate for the fact that the bittering process is still taking place while they sit in cube full of almost boiling wort. which is why i though about them being boiled for 30 minutes. Same to with the flavour addition, if they went in the empty cube, then the cube was filled with boiling wort, that would be my 20-30 minute addition (comparing to conventional boil regimes). out of interest, what's the maximum boil time of hops before they reach max. extraction of bitterness. Is the traditional 60 minutes pretty much the upper limit? And should i focus more on getting my flavour hopping timed correctly?

To Qld Kev and argon. I am sort of basing the grain bill around a recipe I saw in a book called Brewing Classic Styles. As my first run with the new gear, and my second only AG ever (last one was four days ago, with borrowed gear) this is all about getting my feet wet, meticulously taking notes and then refining a general house recipe with repeatable, measurable processes so im not that worried about it this time not being perfect to any style guidelines. thanks for the comment though, i will try that another time when i have more munich. I even thought of adding about 50g caramalt, what do you think?

 

[manticle]

Bittering between 60 minutes and 90 minutes is pretty small so I wouldn't worry. It's late additions you need to watch with no -chill. Even then I'd worry more about beers that rely on a lot of late hopping. I have made 3 addition beers before (bittering, flavouring and aroma) and no chilled and they came out fantastic. 16 IBU is very low for what you're chasing. That's weizen territory. I understand you're not wanting to chase perfect stytle guidelines (and I very rarely do either) but 16 IBU will require something else (like the phenolics and esters you get with weizens) to make it work.

Nothing wrong with making your last additions equivalent to your flavouring additions but I'd leave the bittering at 60, add some more late hops to the cube just before sealing and consider dry hopping with a touch more (maybe 20-30 g).

 

[boobiedazzler]

argon, thanks heaps for taking your time up to calculate that software report, some interesting figures. the OG was almost what I expected, so am happy with that. Will be using a yeast with an attenuation claim of 70-80% so i reckon it will finish off somewhere in the range im happy with.

What's the brewhouse efficency relate to, the amount of sugars converted or the loss in boiling evaporation? How do you come to 75% ? Is single vessel bag brewing not as efficient as sparging methods?

I agree with everyone that says it's a bit light on the hops, and appreciate the feedback. I will jack the first addition up a bit, not only for more ideal figures to the beer style, but to also compensate for them being six months old. Sorry to mention this but that report missed out on the first addition of 15g Amarillo at 60min in my recipe so the IBU at the end will be quite a bit more than the stated 16 IBU that the post above comments on.

 

[boobiedazzler]

<br />also +1 on MB... poke em in there right at the end just before you seal up the cube pushing all the air out.

that's going to be a fun part of the process that i mentally ran through earlier. can i just kneel and put the knee into it while its against a wall? i expect its going to be very hot even on the outside of the cube. nothing a bath towel over my knee wont fix.

 

[manticle]

What's the brewhouse efficency relate to, the amount of sugars converted or the loss in boiling evaporation? How do you come to 75% ? Is single vessel bag brewing not as efficient as sparging methods?

Brewhouse efficiency, as far as I understand is a combination of the total sugars you convert (versus the total starches available to convert) and the total sugars you extract (versus those available converted sugars to extract). You need to work out what your system is capable of (which includes things like crush and mash and sparge temps). It's mostly useful in order to make consistent beer - getting 80 % does not make you a better brewer than someone who gets 68. If you get lower than 60, I'd try and work out why just so you can spend less money on ingredients but after that, consistency is the main concern. You want to be able to design recipes and know what you are getting.

I don't think the % differences between BIAB and 3V/traditional are worth worrying about. My understanding is that any lower eff can be compensated with finer crush etc. However I'm not a BIABer so someone else may have better info.

 

[boobiedazzler]

does anyone get 100% ? i am pulverising a kilo of ale grain to death so that might bring my efficiency up a bit. the trade off is that i will have more useless crap at the end of my boil, and maybe also some husk tannins in the flavour. the protein trub doesnt matter much because the placement of the urn tap will dictate at least half of crap remaining out of the cube. the rest of it will fall in the chilling i guess. mantacle, better efficiency appeals to me more than poor efficiency, 60% sounds pretty bad if people achieve 70% at least. maybe not better brewing but it sounds like being a better masher is what makes most sense in this step of a beer making project. i also wonder how much you can keep adding to the grain bill beore it starts to be less effective as a mash. say 4kg at 100%, or 8kg at 50%. 8kg in an urn would probably take away too much water from the pre-boil.

the great thing, the master plan, is to take painstaking scrutiny over all of the measurable elements, then do a very similar beer again. and again. and again. observing each aspect and changing it specifically and with a purpose. the joy of what im starting tomorrow is that i will be using the same standardised equipment over and over. one thing i have in mind to work out down the track is to standardise a wort into the 20 litre cube that is of a higher gravity than the wort i want to pitch in, then when the time comes, i can add a few litres cold water to bring up the volume for what will be beer. i only bottle, and i dont find much pleasure in this part of the beer making project, so is nice to have as many litres as possible available come capping day. And extra few bottles is worth thinking about a greater fermented volume. That's all for another time though, for now i just want to christen the gear and get a few notches in my belt. I dont care if my bottled volume is less than ideal. having tasted someone elses first few ag beers in their career i am assuming that my first one will still be bloody nice to drink compared to the lesser genuine approaches to homebrewing. for the record i have done about 10 half and half beers before now and havent spent much grey matter on the particulars. whats exciting for me this time, and all future times, I have a vessel with a tap. I have a vessel with its own inbuilt heat supply and control. I have a reinforced high temp food grade pvc tube. That tube will hit the base of the cube. I turn the tap on, and bob's yer unkle.

 

[MarkBastard]

that's going to be a fun part of the process that i mentally ran through earlier. can i just kneel and put the knee into it while its against a wall? i expect its going to be very hot even on the outside of the cube. nothing a bath towel over my knee wont fix.

Put a towel between your knee and the cube. You can put the lid on but not fully tight and then still squeeze air out and get the liquid above the level of the lid (if you're using a jerry can anyway) and then tighten to buggery and kick it over on its side.

 

[manticle]

does anyone get 100% ? i am pulverising a kilo of ale grain to death so that might bring my efficiency up a bit. the trade off is that i will have more useless crap at the end of my boil, and maybe also some husk tannins in the flavour. the protein trub doesnt matter much because the placement of the urn tap will dictate at least half of crap remaining out of the cube. the rest of it will fall in the chilling i guess. mantacle, better efficiency appeals to me more than poor efficiency, 60% sounds pretty bad if people achieve 70% at least. maybe not better brewing but it sounds like being a better masher is what makes most sense in this step of a beer making project. i also wonder how much you can keep adding to the grain bill beore it starts to be less effective as a mash. say 4kg at 100%, or 8kg at 50%. 8kg in an urn would probably take away too much water from the pre-boil.

the great thing, the master plan, is to take painstaking scrutiny over all of the measurable elements, then do a very similar beer again. and again. and again. observing each aspect and changing it specifically and with a purpose. the joy of what im starting tomorrow is that i will be using the same standardised equipment over and over. one thing i have in mind to work out down the track is to standardise a wort into the 20 litre cube that is of a higher gravity than the wort i want to pitch in, then when the time comes, i can add a few litres cold water to bring up the volume for what will be beer. i only bottle, and i dont find much pleasure in this part of the beer making project, so is nice to have as many litres as possible available come capping day. And extra few bottles is worth thinking about a greater fermented volume. That's all for another time though, for now i just want to christen the gear and get a few notches in my belt. I dont care if my bottled volume is less than ideal. having tasted someone elses first few ag beers in their career i am assuming that my first one will still be bloody nice to drink compared to the lesser genuine approaches to homebrewing. for the record i have done about 10 half and half beers before now and havent spent much grey matter on the particulars. whats exciting for me this time, and all future times, I have a vessel with a tap. I have a vessel with its own inbuilt heat supply and control. I have a reinforced high temp food grade pvc tube. That tube will hit the base of the cube. I turn the tap on, and bob's yer unkle.

60% isn't 'bad' - it's not a year 9 maths test. As I said, it's about consistency more than anything else. I get around 70 on a regular basis with my system. That consistency allow me to develop recipes and have a reasonable expectation of result. Efficiency is information for your brewing rather than a holy grail. Efficiency will suffer with noticeable increases in grist size vs strike water too. 80% will use a few hundred less grams of malt per brew than 70. It's not a major factor - you just don't want to be hitting 40%

 

[boobiedazzler]

why do you only get 70% efficiency, System limitations, or grain - crack considerations? Im no scientist and can appreciate that it's not a year 9 maths test. but i would personally expect more efficiency from a process at least for the sake of it.

what efficiency do micro commerical breweries get from their grain mash?

maybe i should finely crush all of my grain, its not as if i have to worry about a blocked runoff with the curtain bag method

the bit butt is that i will end up with more husk mud and maybe some shit flavours, who knows about that last point. there's another thread on this site that powders the whole lot. it seems extreme but is that more efficient?

 

[manticle]

Never worried about why I get 70 as it works for me.

If you BIAB you can crush as fine as you like as far as I understand. I use an esky tun with copper manifold. I have got slightly better efficiency with finer crushes but it's nothing to write home about (maybe 72 %). Many things will impact on efficiency - it's just not something to get bogged down about as long as you're not getting 50.

A regular bIABer would be better answering your questiuons though. If thirsty boy pops his head in here, pay heed to his advice.

 

[big_dazza27]

why do you only get 70% efficiency, System limitations, or grain - crack considerations? Im no scientist and can appreciate that it's not a year 9 maths test. but i would personally expect more efficiency from a process at least for the sake of it.

what efficiency do micro commerical breweries get from their grain mash?

maybe i should finely crush all of my grain, its not as if i have to worry about a blocked runoff with the curtain bag method

the bit butt is that i will end up with more husk mud and maybe some shit flavours, who knows about that last point. there's another thread on this site that powders the whole lot. it seems extreme but is that more efficient?

You will never get anything close to 100% efficiency. What i understand in brewhouse efficiency is the total sugars you've extracted from the grains compared to the total weight of grains. Since the grains are not 100% sugar than you will never extract as much as you put in.

To calculate you efficiency you divide you sugar extracted (Wort volume x OG x Wort density in Plato* /100) divided by total grain weight.

*post boil wort density in Plato (to approximate, divide the number behind the decimal of the specific gravity by four — e.g. 56/4 = 14 Plato)

Here's a basic spreadsheet i made last night after researching the same topic myself.

View attachment Brewhouse_Efficiency.xlsx

 

[boobiedazzler]

I get it now. The grain husk weight is the big let down in that efficiency calculation. I should shell each one of them by hand before i start mashing. Fricking hell, it would take me six months to do a brew. Can you please save that file as .xls so i can play with it . My old bird computer system no likee .xlsx

Ultimately its all getting too scientific for me, approaching my first AG system brew. Good points to consider for future. I still think my outcome when judged by cool glassfull with be rocking great. Apart from the hop increase, i hope (and expect) the recipe to come out OK. Can anyone recalculate argon's IBU's to include the 15g Amorillo @ theoretical 60? Wild guess would say I might expect no less than 25 IBU. Without considering hop extraction efficiency, hop quality and so forth.