Faux Lager recipe help

[rude]

OK quick update with my deal both in ferment fridge ended up pitching both at 16.7 c and it came down real quick to 14c 30 mins
Kolsch yeast 2.75 L tried to pour off but vert powdery so ended pitching 2 L after heaps of sample readings & dilutions ended up with 27.5 L in fermentor 1050
The notto yeast brew 2 packs into 220ml of 32 c cooled boiled water 15 min wait then stired 5 min wait , then mixed about 5 litres of 14 c wort to get 20 c notto starter then pitched into 14 -15 c wort. got 26 Litres there 1050
Kolsch yeast started less than 12 hours ( considerable krausen ) & Notto checked 24 hours & a considerable krausen had formed
Just a waiting game now D rests to contemplate & cc ing might have to pull thr notto out early & take over the missus fridge for cc ing will post a few photos
Hope I havent taken over ya thread Techno but our local Twoc man Roy brews a mean or should say nice Notto yeast beer
The attenuator

 

[dicko]

Yeah that's where I am at now ! think split batches, different yeasts but they have to be at the same temp for me I only have one fridge. I love the idea of low temp notto, I'm brewing a Swartz tomorrow but I will be using 833. But I might brew it again and ferment with notto. And put them side by side. Cheers

If you are doing side by side batches for yeast comparison without getting too involved in trying to ferment an ale yeast at lager temps then you could try S189 lager yeast at a higher temp, say around 16 to 19 degrees.
I would choose the S189 over the Notto every time for the faux lager result.

Anyhow which ever way you go it is fun and I might add that I agree with LRG re adding a touch of Melanoiden

 

[lukiferj]

Isn't s189 an actual lager yeast? Making it an actual lager rather than a faux lager.

 

[dicko]

The OP created a banana flavour by what seems to be caused by yeast stress with the Notto.
If you are going to run a yeast out of its specification then I would have thought it would be better just to use a yeast that did work in the designated temp range.
My thoughts are that if you are going to do a full mash and invest time and money in the process and ingredients then why not have the beer turn out close to what you want to achieve.
On a side note S189 at ale temps around 19 to 20 does a fine APA and I have used it on a California Common once or twice when I have had trouble with a 2112 starter with absolutely great results.

As I said above, have fun and enjoy what you are doing after all we all still make beer.

 

[lukiferj]

Completely agree Dicko, have fun and enjoy what you are doing for sure. However, I don't think the OP was using it outside of it's range. Maybe a combination of other factors.

From the Danstar page:

"The recommended fermentation temperature range of this strain is 14° to 21°C (57° to 70°F) with good tolerance to low fermentation temperatures (12°C/54°F) that allow this strain to be used in lager-style beer. With a relatively high alcohol tolerance, Nottingham is a great choice for creation of higher-alcohol specialty beers!"

 

[technobabble66]

@rude - You hijacking *******!!! Only kidding More than happy for you to take this over - it's all still v much on topic (& my main "issue" was sorted a while ago anyway). Saves any future reader having to chase down several threads if it's all in one.
A comparison between Kolsch & Notto sounds v interesting. Hope it all goes well and you report back here asap with the results!

@Dicko - You reckon S189 works perfectly well at ~16°C and still produces a nice clean lager finish? I didn't realise - i thought you still had to do the normal ~12°C (slow) ferment. I'll be keen to give it a crack then if the results are good.
What sort of fermentation, D-rest, and lagering schedule do you use with it?
Another option is i have a couple of Mangrove Jack Bohemian Lager yeast packs, so i was wondering if i could get away with a slightly high fermentation with those, say ~15°C (high end of recommended range) to ensure it's not too slow, and still get a good lager finish.
Has anyone tried the MJ Boh Lager? If so, at what temps, and how quick did it go?

I still have no idea wtf was with that banana-esque flavour in my faux lager. I'm assuming it was something from the yeast, but who knows?? Hell, it could just be my "special" tastebuds! Reading back, is it possible it could've been from over-pitching?
I think i've still got a 1.5L bottle of this batch in the cupboard - if i liberate it in 2 weeks over a long weekend with the boys i'll try to remember to post a quick update on how it has developed over 12 months.

Melanoiden: noted (thanks for the tip!).

 

[Bribie G]

As I posted on another thread, Bacchus brewing use / used S-189 and S-23 in many of their lagers at 19 degrees then a cold conditioning for a week or two. Nice clean flavours.

 

[Funk then Funk1]

As I posted on another thread, Bacchus brewing use / used S-189 and S-23 in many of their lagers at 19 degrees then a cold conditioning for a week or two. Nice clean flavours.

yeah I've used Ross's swiss yeast - S189 (Ross's recommendation) at 18 degrees, and got nice clean lagers.
Actually I still have a pack in the fridge now...mmm, a schwarzbier next to fill the FV, me thinks. Damn you Ross!

 

[Weizguy]

Wy 1007 low does a great clean faux lager

I have produced banana character from this yeast in the past, for what it's worth.

 

[manticle]

What beer and what temp Lez? Favourite yeast of mine, never noticed isoamyl acetate.

 

[dicko]

As I posted on another thread, Bacchus brewing use / used S-189 and S-23 in many of their lagers at 19 degrees then a cold conditioning for a week or two. Nice clean flavours.

@ Technobabble66
What he said above mate...works quite well from what I have experienced.
I haven't bothered with a D rest when using it at these temps.

To just go a bit more off topic, I work away a bit at this time of the year and I quite often set a beer with a lager yeast in the fermenting fridge at 10 degrees and let it go for two or three weeks until I get home and if it is at terminal gravity I dont do any D rest just cold condition it.
Those beers come out as clean as you can get, with no one fussing over them
My only opinion is that the pitch rate must be correct to work at those temps over that time.
With the S 189 at 19 I generally pitch at Ale rates which is 12 gramms for 21 litres in my case.

 

[dicko]

Completely agree Dicko, have fun and enjoy what you are doing for sure. However, I don't think the OP was using it outside of it's range. Maybe a combination of other factors.

From the Danstar page:

"The recommended fermentation temperature range of this strain is 14° to 21°C (57° to 70°F) with good tolerance to low fermentation temperatures (12°C/54°F) that allow this strain to be used in lager-style beer. With a relatively high alcohol tolerance, Nottingham is a great choice for creation of higher-alcohol specialty beers!"[/size]

I will admit that I have never tried Notto at 12 deg.
Notto is a great workhorse but I dont use it much as it seems to strip a lot of flavour from the beer.
In the case of the Banana esters, I would think the OP may have under pitched it at those low temps....but this is really just a guess.

Cheers

 

[Bribie G]

Early on I used Notto and accidentally got it down to 12 degrees, and it was plugging along nicely.

I've recently bought a couple of packets of Notto for a fake lager SMASH to try out some NZ Dr Rudi (super alpha) for the first time in a NZ Export Gold lookalike so need clean and dry.

 

[technobabble66]

Thanks a truckload Dicko!!
Maybe instead of a fakey I'll give a S189 a crack - maybe do a 18L batch at 17-18*C.

Any particular grist you'd recommend? :lol:
Was thinking mainly Boh Pils, plus 50-100g melanoiden (of course!) plus some wheat (500g) & Vienna/munich2(100-300g). How's that sound? Too complimacated?

 

[dicko]

Mate,
Try this one,

Wey pils 80%
Wey vienna 18%
Melanoiden 2%
Soft water
12.4ibus of Tettnang @ 60
11.3 ibus of Tettnang @ 20
3.7 ibus of Tettnang @ 5
30 gramms of Tettnang @ flame out.
Chilled as cold as possible to ferment temp if possible.
S189 pitched to ale specs and ferment at 18 / 19
Mash at 66 for 60 mins and alpha rest at 71 for 20 mins and mash out at 77
Total boil time 80 mins with first hop addition at 60 mins
Brewbrite at 10 mins
Polyclar for a day before kegging while beer is in cold chill.
Filter through a one micron absolute filter into a keg or bottle as you prefer.

 

[technobabble66]

Thanks again Dicko.
Recipe looks great!
Def give it a crack.

Minor problem: who the hell supplies S189 these days? I've just done a search of most of the Melbourne options and everyone seems to, at best, supply the other 2 saflagers. Seems kinda odd given many reviews of S189 rate it as the best of the three (?).

Is there any other dried yeast option that's the same as S189? Or is there a supplier down here that I've missed? Otherwise I'll have to get it sent down from craftbrewer.

 

[Weizguy]

What beer and what temp Lez? Favourite yeast of mine, never noticed isoamyl acetate.

it was an Altbier. I suspect an underpitch, but I've also had W1056 throw isoamyl acetate from an underpitch in an American blonde.

Back on topic, I hear the W1214 (Bohemian lager) is also cleaner at ale temps and will produce a good lager. Yet to try, but Jamil and cohorts insist.

 

[manticle]

It's my go to yeast in alt and I love it but I pitch big active starters from fresh smack pack and ferment around 14 so no banana here.

Sorry for OT Techno.

 

[technobabble66]

it was an Altbier. I suspect an underpitch, but I've also had W1056 throw isoamyl acetate from an underpitch in an American blonde.

Back on topic, I hear the W1214 (Bohemian lager) is also cleaner at ale temps and will produce a good lager. Yet to try, but Jamil and cohorts insist.

Les, did you mean W2124?
Has anyone used either this or WLP810 (San Fran lager) at high temps?

No issue w OT, mants. I'm also keen to hear more about people's isoamyl acetate experience - seems kinda on topic to me.

 

[Tahoose]

Minor problem: who the hell supplies S189 these days? I've just done a search of most of the Melbourne options and everyone seems to, at best, supply the other 2 saflagers. Seems kinda odd given many reviews of S189 rate it as the best of the three (?).

Is there any other dried yeast option that's the same as S189? Or is there a supplier down here that I've missed? Otherwise I'll have to get it sent down from craftbrewer.

Keg king do, they had some there on Wednesday