Extreme Late Hops

[devo]

so with that mindset wouldn't adding a 60 min addition also lose the valuable hop oil and not bitter then beer?

you will only extract bitterness, not aroma from boiling from 60min plus.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

so with that mindset wouldn't adding a 60 min addition also lose the valuable hop oil and not bitter then beer?

Hop oils are not the components that do the bittering

You have Alpha Acids - which are insoluble, and in the boil are isomerised to iso-alpha acids - which are soluble and bitter. This is your bittering part.

Then you have Hop Oils - which are the flavour and aroma bits.

The hydrocarbon bit of the hop oils is very very volatile and boils off extremely quickly. The traditional wisdom is that its all gone after a maximum of 20mins .. IMO thats over generous and anything more than a flameout or 5 min addition sees all the actual hydrocarbons outta there. This bit gives you the grassy, herbaceous characters you would associate with dry hops ... dry hopping is really the only way apart from a hopback to get significant amounts of this fraction of compound into your beer (cube hopping probably does too ... but the extended heat does stuff to the hydrocarbons)

The hop oils also have an oxidised component - several different compounds that are present in the hops and are also created from the hydro carbons under heated (but not boiling) conditions. These compounds are less volatile and in some cases even more aromatic than the hydrocarbon fraction. Some of these compounds survive a bit of boiling and they are mostly responsible for the floral, citral, spicy notes that you would associate with a traditionally "late hopped" beer.

Then there are Beta acids, oxidised alpha acids, oxidised beta acids and a bunch of other crap that just makes it more confusing... but the above stuff is the main stuff.

60 minute additions essentially boil away all the volatile aroma compounds - leaving behind mainly the non-volatile bittering stuff. The closer to the end of teh boil you add your hops, the more of the aromatic and volatile stuff remains in the beer ... but the less of the Alpha acids are converted to the bitter iso alpha acids.

Its a trade-off

TB

 

[goatherder]

There are a few around - you should be able to search em out by using "cube hopping" as a term.

I have done a few experiments - including one where I had the IBUs of a cube hopped beer measured versus one that had only been standardly hopped. And a couple of tests where I had cube hopped beer tasted by individual/groups of other brewers. Here's what it boils down to.

If you chuck your hops into the cube loose and you give the cube a few tips on its side and back for the first few hours - Calculate the bitterness as though you had put the Hops in at 20-25mins from the end of the boil.

If you put your hops in a nice loose hop bag - and toss that into the cube and you give the cube a few tips on its side and back over the first few hours - Calculate the bitterness as though you had put them in 10-15min from the end of the boil.

My comparisons are to bitterness worked out via Rager in Pro-mash.

Anecdotally - my experiences only - I find that hops added to the cube give a slightly "different" aroma to hops added late in beers that are rapid chilled. The aroma is less intense and doesn't stick out quite so much, but it is deeper, more profound and complex. And you get absolutely great hop flavour from a cube addition - where that might not come through so much with a 0 min or whirlpool addition.

I have some complex hop chemistry based theories about why all this is - you will no doubt see them if you do that search. But best to just give it a try and see how it goes I reckon.

This is still largely guesswork with only a few isolated experiments to try and give it a little solidity -- YMMV I am afraid.

TB

Cheers TB, that's exactly what I was looking for.

 

[jimi]

The last two hop accentuated brews I've cubed (APA & ESB) I've used a FWH a 10min & flame out addition. I've dropped the 30min additions I used to do and I'm happier with the results (aroma & flavour).