Extended Protein Rests

[JaseH]

I've been doing a protein rest lately at around 51-52C, I know the normal suggested time period is around 20min but my HLT is a bit slow to get the water up to temp for the next infusion to sacch rest, so my protein rests end up more like 30-40min. Is this likely to have any adverse effects?

 

[manticle]

Depending on the malt you're using, extending a protein rest may play with head retention.

My one experience with this was a Belgian dark strong that was meant to have a 5-10 min rest at 55 and ended up at 55 or less for about 2 hours while we fixed up a blockage in the tun.

Got two beers from this brew - one a kind of dubbel that had some cacao nibs added. Ended up tasty but was thin with zero head retention.

The rest had D2 syrup added and was aged for 12 months. I then racked into a fermenter and added a minimash of wheat and a touch of belgian crystal and now, despite the beer being undercarbed (getting there slowly) it has a great mouthfeel and good retentions from proteins.

Long story short from my limited experience-

1. extended rest with modified malt can kill retention and mouthfeel but how extended?
2. Can be fixed if that's the result.

 

[JaseH]

One I'm brewing today, which has had about a 40min P-rest, is based on Dr Smurtos golden ale, using Pilsner, Munich and wheat. Last one of these I brewed, probably had 30min P-rest and had reasonable head retention - lots of lacing on the glass, basically had to get a clean glass for each pour. Body could have been a bit thin I suppose. Might try and adjust my process to get a shorter rest and see if there is much difference.

 

[Acasta]

Here is an interesting thread with some people weighting in on Protein Rests, some good info while you wait for others to chime in.

 

[Bribie G]

Yup my post #3 on that thread seems to sum it up: you want some proteins in the beer to provide head and lacing, but you want the right proteins.

 

[bradsbrew]

A bit away from the OP but in the same ballpark.

What about cold water mash in? I have, for the last 2 brews, done a cold tap water mash in. Basically goes like this:

Mash in at 25- 30 deg then immediately set to 55
Once at 55 leave for 10 min
then ramp to mash temp leave for 60 min
start double batch sparge

The first one was an IPA that turned out a bit thin but the malt held up quite well and head retention was fine.
The second is a Rauch that I wanted to thin out a bit but I found that the break during the boil was long strips some up to 100mm long and about 8mm thick. Is that different protein?

Cheers

 

[Crusty]

Head retention will suffer for sure. I stopped doing protein rests for this reason. Since doing protein rests @55deg for 10mins or so, the beers suffered from poor head retention, pretty disappointing actually. A simple single infusion is a much better option for retaining the proteins you need. I think 10mins or less is acceptable but anything longer than that & you might be a tad disappointed.

 

[manticle]

55 for 5-10 minutes is absolutely fine - lovely retention.

Also multi-stepped mashes are fine and depending on the steps, may benefit.

If you get bad retention doing stepped mashes, you're doing them wrong.

 

[QldKev]

55 for 5-10 minutes is absolutely fine - lovely retention.

Also multi-stepped mashes are fine and depending on the steps, may benefit.

If you get bad retention doing stepped mashes, you're doing them wrong.

I always do a 55c 5min step. The time is more up to 10min by the time I get sorted and hit the timer.

I agree with manticle "If you get bad retention doing stepped mashes, you're doing them wrong."

In the case of 55 for 30-40 min I think you will get a light fluffy head that drops of to bugger all really fast.


QldKev

 

[dr K]

For what my thoughts are worth, unless you are brewing a wheat beer, so called protein rests will do little to improve your beer, have faith in the malster, they have selected the best grains and malted in such a away that the so called protein rest is of little or no value.
K

 

[Nick JD]

I do protein rests by accident because my grain is so doughy I have to mash in below sacc temps or I'm just making barley bread.

 

[manticle]

For what my thoughts are worth, unless you are brewing a wheat beer, so called protein rests will do little to improve your beer, have faith in the malster, they have selected the best grains and malted in such a away that the so called protein rest is of little or no value.
K

I remember a couple of years ago when I was making my first AG weizen and looking at stepping for the first time, Zwickel advised NOT protein resting for weizens.

Ferulic acid, sacch, dextrin, mash out

A little of Zwickel's opinions on protein resting can be found here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=46676 (post# 16)

Zwickel's regime for weizens here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;#entry567350

and here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...mp;#entry565049

Zwickel's discussion of step mashing pilsners here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/blog...hp?showentry=15

Currently can't find the post (or even thread) where Zwickel advised me to avoid p-rests for a weizen but it's out there with Fox mulder.

 

[JaseH]

Well I'll see how it turns out. First observation, I got really good mash efficiency, close to 90%

My usually mash efficiency is <80%

Also the foamy break layer at the start of the boil appeared to be a bit thicker than usual, not sure if it has anything to do with the protein rest.

 

[wessmith]

Well I'll see how it turns out. First observation, I got really good mash efficiency, close to 90%

My usually mash efficiency is <80%

Also the foamy break layer at the start of the boil appeared to be a bit thicker than usual, not sure if it has anything to do with the protein rest.

That initial head foam as the wort starts to boil is a fair indication that you have broken down some of the protein material with your P rest. What was the subsequent hot break like? dusty or snow flakes?

Wes

 

[JaseH]

I didn't pay a lot of attention to it, but the hot break did appear a bit finer than usual. So more dusty than snow flakey I'd say.

 

[wessmith]

I didn't pay a lot of attention to it, but the hot break did appear a bit finer than usual. So more dusty than snow flakey I'd say.

OK, that is not so good. You really need snowflakes to ensure good flocculation. Can also indicate calcium being a bit on the low side too. I would suggest that for the base malt you have used you definitely do not need a P rest. If you want to mash in low, try a minimum of 58C - just above P territory.

Wes

 

[JaseH]

OK, that is not so good. You really need snowflakes to ensure good flocculation. Can also indicate calcium being a bit on the low side too. I would suggest that for the base malt you have used you definitely do not need a P rest. If you want to mash in low, try a minimum of 58C - just above P territory.

Wes

So your saying less of the hot break will have flocc'd out? What effect does this have.

Hmmm... ok, might have to give the P-rests a miss until I have a more timely way to perform the steps.

 

[wessmith]

So your saying less of the hot break will have flocc'd out? What effect does this have.

Hmmm... ok, might have to give the P-rests a miss until I have a more timely way to perform the steps.

Simply means a lot more cold break material will find its way to the fermenter because the protein breakdown materials did not flocculate out in the kettle. You really need to watch the hot break - it is one of the key indicators of the your malt choice, water profile and mash regime. This is where all the malt and mash chemistry comes together and presents a visual "display" - not always easy to interpret but a great indicator. In your recent brew, did you find a lot of scummy grey deposits on the top of the mash bed? (not sure what brew style you used now..) That is also an indication of protein breakdown but it can also be the result of a high protein barley that has had to be "over malted" to bring it back into a normal brewable range. Still not a good thing to see though.

Wes

 

[mr_tyreman]

not such a big issue, but i've had problems lautering an extended length mash, turns into porridge and struggles to drain properly.