Electricians....question For You?

[pokolbinguy]

G'day folks,

I have a quick electrical question...and yes before anyone jumps on the "don't do it you will kill yourself bandwagon" ....which I assume people will (its ok LC I compelety understand where you are coming from with those sort of posts.)...anyway....I am hoping to get a fermenting fridge ...to ferment in ....but where I want to put it there is no powerpoint....its in my kitchen where there is a little wall next to the kitchen fridge...it protrudes out from the back wall where the fridge backs up to...which there is powerpoint for the kitchen fridge obviously....on the other side (where I want my ferment fridge) there is a hole in the wall (from previous tenants) that is roughly the same size as a power point....so my though was to "piggy back" a power point off the circuit that runs the kitchen fridge and mount a new powerpoint in leiu of the ugly tennis ball sized hole.

Now my question is.....would you "piggy back" the cable straight out of the current power point where the current cable wired into the current power point and loop through the wall to the new point (the framing is metal...so not sure what access is there for cabling) ....or would you put a splitter in the cable (say in the roof) and run the cable to the new point from there???

Also is anyone in Adelaide a leco??? Would love to be able to do this myself..and if I did would get a leco to check what I am doing/done before it is turned on at the board but if someone is willing to do it for a case of beer the "right" way then that would be even better. But also being a tennant I dont want to be in the position of the owner saying "who did this...are they qualified" etc etc

Anyway any help would be great.

Cheers, Pok

Note: I'm not a dickhead hillbilly "just stick wires here there and every where" type of guy and realise that electricity can kill me, my gf, my beer fridge and even the local cat if I get it wrong..thus this thread...so please don't just say "don't do it you will kill yourself ". Honest and real advise is what I am after

 

[Screwtop]

G'day folks,

I have a quick electrical question...and yes before anyone jumps on the "don't do it you will kill yourself bandwagon" ....which I assume people will (its ok LC I compelety understand where you are coming from with those sort of posts.)...anyway....I am hoping to get a fermenting fridge ...to ferment in ....but where I want to put it there is no powerpoint....its in my kitchen where there is a little wall next to the kitchen fridge...it protrudes out from the back wall where the fridge backs up to...which there is powerpoint for the kitchen fridge obviously....on the other side (where I want my ferment fridge) there is a hole in the wall (from previous tenants) that is roughly the same size as a power point....so my though was to "piggy back" a power point off the circuit that runs the kitchen fridge and mount a new powerpoint in leiu of the ugly tennis ball sized hole.

Now my question is.....would you "piggy back" the cable straight out of the current power point where the current cable wired into the current power point and loop through the wall to the new point (the framing is metal...so not sure what access is there for cabling) ....or would you put a splitter in the cable (say in the roof) and run the cable to the new point from there???

Also is anyone in Adelaide a leco??? Would love to be able to do this myself..and if I did would get a leco to check what I am doing/done before it is turned on at the board but if someone is willing to do it for a case of beer the "right" way then that would be even better. But also being a tennant I dont want to be in the position of the owner saying "who did this...are they qualified" etc etc

Anyway any help would be great.

Cheers, Pok

Note: I'm not a dickhead hillbilly "just stick wires here there and every where" type of guy and realise that electricity can kill me, my gf, my beer fridge and even the local cat if I get it wrong..thus this thread...so please don't just say "don't do it you will kill yourself ".

Pok, what you propose is really shonky and rough and outside of the regs. Didn't tell you not to do it. My dickhead detector went off the scale when I read this though :lol:

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[Gout]

do it do it do it

Just be sure that if (it most likly wont) it was to cause a fire, and they find it was not installed by a leco - insurance may not pay up, then you would be in a spot of bother

I doubt it would cost much to have it done... or use a ext lead?

 

[newguy]

I'm in Canada so I obviously can't comment on the Australian electrical code, but it's probably similar to the Canadian code, so I'll spout a bit. It's ultimately up to you what you want to do, code or not.

It's code here for the fridge outlet to be the only only circuit on that breaker. That said, a fridge doesn't draw a lot of current and a single breaker should support two of them.

It's against code anywhere to "bury" a connection point. The electrical box that houses the splice/connection between two cables must be accessible. You can't bury it behind drywall or any other place where it can't be accessed. An attic/crawlspace is okay.

All electrical outlets have two sets of connections, either screws or push-in style (usually both). The fridge outlet in place now, assuming it's the only outlet on that breaker, should have a spare set open. Instead of splicing into that cable as you wondered about, it's way easier to just tap into that outlet. Just run the cable from that outlet over to your new one. Just be careful about running the cable through the metal studs - there has to be some sort of grommet in place to prevent the cable from wearing through.

The big issue is with insurance/liability. If there ever was a fire and your wiring handiwork is discovered (assuming it is against your electrical code to have more than one outlet on the fridge's breaker), there will be no insurance coverage. You'd be responsible for damages.

 

[pokolbinguy]

Pok, what you propose is really shonky and rough and outside of the regs. Didn't tell you not to do it. My dickhead detector went off the scale when I read this though :lol:

Cheers,

Screwy

Thats ok Screwy...thats the whole reason I asked...any idea how much it would cost to pay a leco to do it properly...given there is a circuit there and only a short cable run??

Thanks for the honesty.

Cheers, Pok

EDIT: After reading these replies already...I will cough up the cash to get a leco to put it in properly...be that a fellow brewer who s qaulified and payment is beer or cash to a tradie...last thing I want is something going wrong and it being my fault and insurance coming to have my balls.

for the mean time an extension cord around the wall may be the solution...

Thanks for the words of wisdom so far guys.

 

[MarkMc]

Thats ok Screwy...thats the whole reason I asked...any idea how much it would cost to pay a leco to do it properly...given there is a circuit there and only a short cable run??

Thanks for the honesty.

Cheers, Pok

If the kitchen point has 2 cables, then take one out and put that in to the new point, and get a new bit of cable to join them upm keeping the ring main. well thats how i used to do it in the UK. not sure about aussie regs, but UK ones are pretty strict. Fomr my experience of aussie leco's (only 1) it would be safer to do it yourself.

 

[porky]

I'm in Canada so I obviously can't comment on the Australian electrical code, but it's probably similar to the Canadian code, so I'll spout a bit. It's ultimately up to you what you want to do, code or not.

You are right to say you can't comment on the Australian electrical code.
It is completely different from yours.
You use 115 volt don't you?
Here is 220, different altogether, know nothings should stay away from it.
Another thing....I have several rentals...I would not be pleased if a tennant should chose to rewire MY house on their own.

 

[bum]

You are right to say you can't comment on the Australian electrical code.
It is completely different from yours.
You use 115 volt don't you?

They're 15amp over there if memory serves. Doesn't really change anything except your rhetoric.

 

[Screwtop]

Thats ok Screwy...thats the whole reason I asked...any idea how much it would cost to pay a leco to do it properly...given there is a circuit there and only a short cable run??

Thanks for the honesty.

Cheers, Pok

EDIT: After reading these replies already...I will cough up the cash to get a leco to put it in properly...be that a fellow brewer who s qaulified and payment is beer or cash to a tradie...last thing I want is something going wrong and it being my fault and insurance coming to have my balls.

for the mean time an extension cord around the wall may be the solution...

Thanks for the words of wisdom so far guys.

Glad you took it in the vein intended mate. If you can run external (not inside the wall) from the existing PP to where you want the new PP - grab a GPO (double) and 2 x mounting blocks, some 2.5mm twin and earth cable, 16mm Grey PVC Electrical Conduit and some convoluted conduit (length depends on distance). Then call a lecky for a labour only job, should be around $75 per hr, might be less for cash no invoice. He will have a few sadles etc if needed. Buying the stuff at retail may end up costing more than having the sparkie do it all. Offer cash!

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[Screwtop]

They're 15amp over there if memory serves. Doesn't really change anything except your rhetoric.

Voltage schmoltage, how does a little 30,000V - 50,000V static discharge feel when exiting your car in dry windy weather. It's the current that kills!

Screwy

 

[porky]

They're 15amp over there if memory serves. Doesn't really change anything except your rhetoric.

Another great example of someone talking that knows NOTHING of which he speaks.

WTF?....amps are not relevant to the issue.

but you would know that wouldn't you.

Or maybe not.

scary that advise like this is given out.....and with a stupid attitude as well. (referring to your stupid rhetoric comment)

 

[bum]

I work around live HV cables on a daily basis. Voltage ain't shit.

Shit, they make 2 million volt tasers. Wanna know why they don't fry you instantly? They're only 0.002amperes.

 

[Screwtop]

I work around live HV cables on a daily basis. Voltage ain't shit.

Shit, they make 2 million volt tasers. Wanna know why they don't fry you instantly? They're only 0.002amperes.

hehe, have melted a few shifting spanners dropping them accross 1,800A buss bars. Blam...............splatter..........gone :lol:

Screwy

 

[bum]

You should have picked them up before they melted. You need to respect your tools.

( h34r: )

 

[pokolbinguy]

I was always under the impression it was the amps that gives the thump...not the voltage....I could be wrong tho (considering this is from memory..and at times it is not a very good memory)..but a million volts and one millionth of an amp wont do shit...is this right?? I assume signs that say "beware forty billion volts enclosed" are more to scare people ...but its the 20 billion amps enclosed that will kill???

 

[LethalCorpse]

Guys, please stop the pissing contest about voltage versus current. None of you (except newguy) know what you're talking about, and you're speaking as though you think you do.

Budwiser, you're right, newguy doesn't know the particular regulations for South Australia, however, he knows far more about electricity and wiring than you do. Yes, I can say that categorically. Their supply voltage is different, but many of the wiring rules are the same wherever you are, because the justification behind them doesn't change. 115VAC, contrary to popular belief, will kill you almost as easily as 240VAC.

Now, for all of you, statements like "the voltage doesn't matter, it's the amps that kill you", or vice versa, mean absolutely nothing. Voltage and current are inextricably interdependent, for a given resistance. V=IR is a constant relationship (anyone who's read to the end of the chapter will please shut up about phase while I'm explaining the basics). Now, the folks arguing that current is the all-important variable are correct, to an extent - the heart will go into fibrillation when a certain amount of current is passed through it. This current, however, is incredibly low - about 60mA for AC, about 300mA for DC. The reason that you can apply fairly high voltages without reaching these currents is because your skin resistance is very high - dry skin will present upwards of 100 kilohms. This high resistance will prevent a high current from flowing, even if the voltage is fairly high. Wet skin is a much better conductor, at about 1kohms, which is why it's much easier to electrocute yourself when wet.

Another important factor in electrocution is source impedance - the resistance, inductance and capacitance in the wires, transformers, etc of the thing delivering the voltage to the body. Statements like "Shit, they make 2 million volt tasers. Wanna know why they don't fry you instantly? They're only 0.002amperes" are approaching the truth, but not quite. The reason they may only deliver 0.002 amperes is because they have a very high source impedance. That source impedance, when added in series with the body's resistance, means that only a very small current will flow. The terminal voltage, if measured when connected across a human body, will be very much lower than that 2million volts. In fact, it will be much lower than 240VAC. Most of the voltage is across the high resistance in the source, because a voltage is shared proportionally across resistors in series (90% of the resistance sees 90% of the voltage).

Another issue is capacity. A static discharge off a car is a very high voltage, and has fairly low impedance if you touch metal, but the number of electrons stored in the car which can pass to you is finite, and small. As they're transferred, the voltage drops dramatically, and quickly. It is only several thousand volts for the barest fraction of a second, and therefore not able to kill you.

So, yes, it's the current that kills you, but you can't have a current without a voltage, and the whole thing depends on the skin resistance and the source resistance. You might as well say voltage and current don't mean squat, it's the resistance that kills you. The entire system must be considered as exactly that - a system. The behaviour of all components therein must be considered if you want to work out what's going to happen when you throw the switch. Voltages, resistances, capacitances, stored charges, inductances, source impedances, skin moisture, health of the subject and the present phases of the moon.

Mains supplies, whatever voltage they are, have very low source impedances. They're designed to drive large currents, and any impedance would drag their voltage down, so they would not skip a beat whilst driving several amps into a human body. They'll most likely kill you if you screw it up. So don't.

Pok, I don't know how the wiring rules require you to connect your fridge - I'm not an electrician. I would almost certainly wire it as you've suggested - piggyback off the existing socket. There are probably a million reasons this is the wrong thing to do, newguy's suggestion of a fridge requiring its own circuit may be one of them (though my fridge doesn't have its own circuit, and you can plug in a fridge anywhere you like). A sparky is qualified to perform wiring according to the regulations. I've met many sparkies who don't know a damn thing about electricity, but they know the wiring rules. If you hire them to do the job, you have a reasonable expectation that they'll do it correctly. They'll probably do exactly the same thing you or I might do, whether or not the wiring rules allow it, but if it screws up you have paperwork to blame them for it. It's entirely up to you whether you chance it or hire a sparky for the peace of mind.

 

[Gout]

I wouldnt ignore such a sign.... and its more than just to scare you. Volts jump, current thumps. neither are good really.

They use higher voltage on the lines to lower current and hence power loss (I^2.R) etc etc etc

end of story is power is a silent killer and unless you know exactly what your doing - dont do it

edit : LC post above covers it

 

[pokolbinguy]

Guess I'll get a leco in then

 

[avaneyk]

+1000 to what Lethal has said above.

Polkolbinguy - FWIW I've got a back to back powerpoint in my house - it was like that when I bought the place. My girlfriend's dad is a sparky and when he saw it he just said "Oh they've piggybacked it" but wasn't worried. That said though, it'd be best to get advice directly from a sparky who will know the rules.

[Edit: typos]

 

[rude]

Hey Polk Turn the main switch off

Use a meter to chech that the power is off before you touch (very important)

Then run some TPS from the existing GPO to you're new one

Weather you you do it in the roof space or from another GPO doesnt matter

Hopefully you havent allready got a million points on that cct but I doubt it

Make sure you match the wire colours & when screwing the GPO in you dont screw it into the cable