Does this recipe have enough bitterness for 17% crystal?

[galactaphonic]

Hi forum,

I was wondering if I could get some feedback on a recipe I've been formulating for an India brown ale. I'm trying to recreate reasonably hoppy but easy drinking brown ales I've encountered - none of whose names I can remember. I particularly wanted to know whether I'd made it bitter enough to handle 1kg of light crystal though any and all feedback welcome.

India Brown Ale

Batch Size: 21.00 l
Style: Brown IPA (21B)
Boil Size: 26.65 l
Color: 40.4 EBC
Bitterness: 45.0 IBUs
Boil Time: 60 min
Est OG: 1.060 (14.7° P)
Mash: 67°C
Est FG: 1.013 SG (3.3° P)
ABV: 6.2%

Ingredients
Amount Name %/IBUs
3.50 kg Pilsner, Malt Craft Export (Joe White) (3.2 EBC) 58.3%
1.40 kg Amber (Voyager Craft Malt) (50.0 EBC) 23.3%
1.00 kg Carahell (Weyermann) (25.6 EBC) 16.7%
100.0 g Gladfield Dark Chocolate Malt (1300.0 EBC) 1.7%
30.0 g Chinook [13.0%] - Boil 60 min 45 IBUs
60.0 g Columbus [14.0%] - Boil 0 min 0 IBUs
1 pkgs Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) -

edit: fixed formatting

 

[Droopy Brew]

I probably wouldnt go that high on the crystal but that is my taste. I dont think there is anyhthing wrong with it and 45IBus will help carry it. However your brew program attributes 0 IBUs to the 0 minute addition. This is a falacy and it pisses me off that most programs do this. You will definitely get some alpha isomerisation and at a guess you would likely get an additional 5-10 IBUs from that addition depending on your cooling process and rest time.
That said, I think the extra IBUs will help balance the beer.

 

[manticle]

I'd be looking the other way - is that too much crystal for that bitterness level.

For me, it probably would be. Have done 500g UK med crystal in 20 L 5%abv batches (ESB style) and that was OK/good but borderline for me. It depends a lot on personal taste and I'm also not a user of carahell - all crystals are a little bit different.

 

[Kingy]

Have you made the Janet's brown ale recipe out of brewing classic styles. I don't mind that beer. I've brewed it a few times. I prefer to bottle it for a month or 3 as well.
I've got one in the fridge actually,wish I was at home now I'd drink it.
Edit: doesn't really help with your question but it feels good now I got that off my chest. Cheers.

 

[galactaphonic]

It was actually Janet's brown ale that gave me the idea to add in 1kg of crystal - that recipe uses 1.25lb Carapils and 1.25lb Crystal 40L!

I was also thinking the late additions of Columbus would add a fair bit of bitterness.

And I'm using Carahell because I have 5kg I need to get through...

 

[Coodgee]

carahell is light AF crystal at only 25 EBC. It will be fine. I brewed a red IPA with 8% caramunich (90 EBC) and 5% each of light and medium bairds crystal against 55 IBU and it got a silver medal in a brew club comp. There is definitely a trend against using a lot of crystal on AHB in APAs and IPAs but I think it's just a matter of naming convention. The same guys who loath crystal in an IPA with load up a golden ale with crystal...

 

[fdsaasdf]

Looks like it should be a tasty recipe, personally I'd probably move the Columbus addition to 5 or 10 minutes to get closer to 60IBU and balance that sweetness. Also agree that 0 minute additions aren't well-handled by brewing software calcs.

 

[Dan Pratt]

Agreeing with Coodgee, this beer will be ok with that amount of Carahell, it's basically a next step from carapils before you get to caramalt or light crystal which is what you were aiming for.

The 23% Amber malt would be my concern, that will be the dominant flavour for this beer which should be balanced with the hops. You will get bitterness from the Columbus late like mentioned above

 

[galactaphonic]

Thanks for the feedback so far.

I will definitely up the IBUs - I'm thinking to about 60.

I was toying with reducing the amounts of crystal and amber but I've seen recipes that use those amounts (though not together) so I think it's worth a try (hopefully not just as a learning experience).

Regarding the high amount of amber, I'm assuming this will add a lot to the malt character - is malt character also something that would get balanced out by plenty of hops?

 

[manticle]

Janet's brown is pretty good and carapils is pretty light on as far as cara anything goes. If carahell isn't far off that, give it a crack and tweak for next time if required.

 

[Coodgee]

upping the bitterness might balance the beer, but it also pushes it into "big, bold" territory. It's going to be bitter with heaps of malt, roast and hop flavour. Sounds quite nice! But it might be the kind of beer you need to age for a while to get the best out of it. Depends what you like. It's not going to be sessionable that's for sure! Instead of upping the IBU you could just mash it a little cooler at say 66 degrees or even 65 degrees and that will remove more residual sweetness from the final beer. You will finish a few gravity points lower and end up in the high 6% ABV. But these are all things you could try on subsequent brews. I reckon brew it as you had planned personally.

 

[bradsbrew]

With that much crystal i would mash at 62.
I recently brewed a 5am saint batch from the diy dog recipe. It had a rediculous amount of crystal but the low mash and huge dry hop has left me with a well balanced hop juice.

Cheers

 

[Chridech]

Do you think there may be a little too much Amber malt in there? I've only dared use it in small amounts as it's described as having an intense flavour. It is a light roasted malt and could be quite bitter in large amounts. The Malt book from the Brewing Elements Series recommends it contribute no more than 10% of the grist. Also 100g of dark chocolate malt doesn't seem like much but will still contribute a roasty flavour. You mind want to consider exchanging it for pale chocolate malt which is about 500 EBC depending on the brand.

Edit: sorry just re-read Pratty's post- similar advice regarding Amber malt.

 

[timmi9191]

I just wonder if 17% of carahell is too one dimensional?

When I've moved into the teen% with crystals I've always spread them across the range. Not saying it's wrong...

 

[Coodgee]

It all comes down to what you like mate. And if you don't know what effect that amount will have on a finished beer then you have to start somewhere. What one person thinks is over the top someone will find just right, and will find the conservative version boring and tasteless. I tend to go a bit with the more is more attitude so i think your recipe is well within the bounds of sensible recipe formation.

 

[galactaphonic]

Thanks everyone for your feedback - it's been very useful.

The recipe for 5am Saint Batch was a good reference.

After having a beer last night with plenty of amber malt character (Frenchies English Strong Ale) I've decided to concede that 1.4kg of amber malt could be a bit too much. I'm going to dial it down to 0.9kg - which is still going to be lots. I'm also thinking I might use Vermont IPA yeast instead of US05 and change the chocolate malt to pale chocolate malt (so I can use more without affecting colour). My tweaked recipe:

Batch Size: 21.00 l
Style: Brown IPA (21B)
Boil Size: 26.65 l
Color: 38.1 EBC
Bitterness: 63.9 IBUs
Boil Time: 60 min
Est OG: 1.056 (13.7° P)
Mash: 67°C
Est FG: 1.010 SG (2.6° P)
ABV: 6.0%

Ingredients
Amount Name %/IBUs
3.50 kg Pilsner, Malt Craft Export (Joe White) (3.2 EBC) 63.1%
1.00 kg Carahell (Weyermann) (25.6 EBC) 18%
900.0 g Amber (Voyager Craft Malt) (50.0 EBC) 16.2%
150.0 g Gladfield Light Chocolate Malt (900.0 EBC) 2.7%
15.0 g Chinook [13.0%] - Boil 60 min 21.2 IBUs
60.0 g Columbus [14.0%] - Boil 15 min 42.7 IBUs
1 pkgs Vermont IPA (Giga Yeast GY054)

 

[Midnight Brew]

I've seen amber used in that amount in a massive Stout. And remember it is toasted so it will dominate. Currently have it in an IPA at 3.7% and it's good. I've brewed with it many times myself and hated it, used it wrong And all kinds of disasters. The IPA is a collaboration brew with Mardoo and it works good in combination with heritage crystal and uk hops.

Be warned. Your results may vary.