diacetyl? sweetness? kegging issue?

[fletcher]

hey guys,

starting to get a bit bummed.

i've currently got a german wheat and a simple blonde ale in the kegerator, and both have been sitting there at 12psi for about 3-4 weeks.

the wheat tastes great but the blonde ale (simple recipe - pale ale, and a bit of crystal, and tettnang to 22 ibu, wy1007 at 16C with a few days D rest) has a sweetness to it, or some taste i can't put my finger on but it is exactly the same 'off' taste as my previous similar blonde ale, which had slightly different ingredients (different base malts, spec malts, yeasts and hops), so i've ruled out that. additionally, i had one bottle of it, and it tasted amazing, so it's just from the keg where the problem lies.

i'm new to kegging but have read some other posts about a sweetness developing in beers when kegging and wondered whether it was diacetyl or something in my beer lines.

so, i flushed my beer lines with a very strong dilution of sodium perc and hot water for a good 30 mins, then rinsed and then flushed with star san. the star san has been sitting in there for about 3 weeks until i connected the keg tonight and poured it. definitely let a lot of the initial star san solution mixed with beer pour through first, then tried it. poured a new one, tried again. still the same. it's a flavour i can't describe but to me it's an unpleasant sweetness.

could it be something in the disconnects? the gas lines? (have had no beer in my gas lines) delayed diacetyl? so far in my kegs i've had 4 beers. sadly enough they've been almost similar - 2 blonde ales and 2 wheats. both wheats have been fantastic but the blonde ales have had the same sweetness thing and it's really starting to shit me off. if it's not present in the bottled version, what the F could it be when in the keg?

any help is appreciated.

 

[dent]

So long as you're not drinking beer that has been sitting in the lines for days, I doubt the kegging is at fault. Could it be that the beer in the kegs has had simply less conditioning time? The fact your bottles of the same beer are good hints to this. I've never heard of any "kegged developing sweetness" concept.

The only time I've had an infection travel from the keg system to the beer is when I had a line with a brett beer hooked up to a keg I later left outside for six months (coz it sucked anyhow). Brett lager, yeeech.

 

[fletcher]

can confirm i'm not drinking beer from the lines, as i'll often pour a half glass from the lines into a throw out glass, before pouring a new glass for myself.

when you say less conditioning time do you mean at ambient temps? the bottle stayed out at ambient for about 2 weeks to carbonate then was fridged for about 2 weeks before i poured it today. technically both have been 'conditioning' for the same time, only the bottled one was at a higher temp. the only difference is that the beer in the bottle stayed at ambient to carbonate, whereas the kegged beer didn't. do you think it could be that?

it's had time at 18-20C whereas the kegged beer has been sitting at 3C for the same duration.

would it help to leave the keg at ambient for a bit? or would this negatively affect it

 

[dent]

Probably would have been better to keep the fermenter warm for longer before kegging. Options now are to keep it cold and hope it comes good (sometimes) or warm it up and hope for the yeast to repair it (might take some time, risk of infection in the keg growing, weather might be too hot!).

I've had success before putting a too-soon-decanted keg back out in the weather for a couple weeks to repair the faults in it.

 

[fletcher]

if i take the keg out and leave it at ambient does it eventually lose it's carbonation? i would assume so. it was needed for christmas, so i'll keep it out then force carb it christmas day i suppose and hope for the best.

 

[dent]

Not really, so long as it is sealed. Just like a can of coke doesn't get flat if it gets warm, so long as you don't open it.

What will tend to happen is that all the chill haze that would normally settle out will still be in solution, so the beer will be hazier than it would be if you kept it in the fridge.

 

[fletcher]

ugh. i suppose the need to be out for a few weeks means this won't be ready for christmas day then.

 

[4KingAle]

Do you use sugar in your bottles? Maybe your bottled version "drys,attenuates" out more because of that?
I'm no source of information. Just a thought.

 

[fletcher]

Do you use sugar in your bottles? Maybe your bottled version "drys,attenuates" out more because of that?
I'm no source of information. Just a thought.

it finished at 1.010 and was for 3 days before kegging/bottling.

i'm putting it down to not allowing it to condition at higher temps enough before crash chilling

i honestly can't think of any other reason than that. i just checked and my d-rest was only for a day. i just think it was chilled too soon, and essentially stayed at those low temps until now, as it's gone from crash chill, into the keg.

in any case, it's now just sitting in ambient and i'll pop it back in the keg on christmas day - fingers crossed!

 

[panzerd18]

The higher the temp, the more active the yeast, the faster they will clean the beer up.

 

[Goose]

My prognosis is a classic case of PKDDF. (People like acronyms around here. Post Kegging Delayed Diacetyl Formation). It can happen for a variety of reasons despite a diacetyl rest which you did.

The good news is that it can be corrected with active yeast.

You could create a starter but I have found that the easiest way do this is to use rehydrated dried yeast and holding for 2 to 3 days at 21-23 deg C. By rehydrating I mean 15 minutes in a weight of water 10 x that of the yeast. I have found one sachet will treat two kegs very well.

 

[fletcher]

My prognosis is a classic case of PKDDF. (People like acronyms around here. Post Kegging Delayed Diacetyl Formation). It can happen for a variety of reasons despite a diacetyl rest which you did.

The good news is that it can be corrected with active yeast.

You could create a starter but I have found that the easiest way do this is to use rehydrated dried yeast and holding for 2 to 3 days at 21-23 deg C. By rehydrating I mean 15 minutes in a weight of water 10 x that of the yeast. I have found one sachet will treat two kegs very well.

i'd rather not risk infection by transferring into a different vessel; have you just added the to your kegs at that temp?

 

[Goose]

indeed no need to change kegs.

Raise the temperature to 20-23 first. Simply open the keg and add the yeast slurry. Make sure the lid is sanitised with a spray bottle of starsan before re-sealing. Burp with a bit of CO2 and you are set.

 

[fletcher]

indeed no need to change kegs.

Raise the temperature to 20-23 first. Simply open the keg and add the yeast slurry. Make sure the lid is sanitised with a spray bottle of starsan before re-sealing. Burp with a bit of CO2 and you are set.

i sadly can't fit the keg in my ferment fridge but it's sitting in my kitchen which i'm sure is around 19-21C. you don't think leaving it there will fix it or does adding the yeast speed that conditioning process up?

just cautious the beer will be extra yeasty with the new yeast in there.

p.s thanks for answering my stupid questions.

 

[Goose]

i sadly can't fit the keg in my ferment fridge but it's sitting in my kitchen which i'm sure is around 19-21C. you don't think leaving it there will fix it or does adding the yeast speed that conditioning process up?

just cautious the beer will be extra yeasty with the new yeast in there.

p.s thanks for answering my stupid questions.

I would try raising the temperature to ambient first. leave it a few days and see how it tastes. if no improvement I'd add the yeast.

After adding the yeast you have to give it sufficient time is really just that to allow the yeast to settle. Once that's done the beer will clarify again and you shouldnt get any yeasty flavours. . That has been my experience fwiw.

Good luck.

 

[pyrosx]

I fixed a diacetyl issue in a recent keg of beer, simply by removing it from the keg fridge, and leaving it at warm-ish (most days were around 30C) ambient temp for about a week. I gave the keg a bit of a swirl about to rouse the settled yeast a couple of times.

With that simple procedure, a beer marred by a nasty oily buttery aftertaste turned into an absolute cracker.

Also... i'd be putting it back into the keg fridge a day before you want to drink it - cooling 20L of water takes a decent amount of time. No one wants to drink warm beer on Christmas day!

 

[manticle]

May be an obvious question but are you tasting the beer before chilling? If diacetyl or acetaldehyde are noticeably present, it's a good indication that chilling should wait.

 

[fletcher]

thanks all. will be sure to not crash it so soon after FG is reached from now on. this has rarely happened before because i've normally always bottled my beers til i got my kegerator. fingers crossed it's nice by christmas

 

[fletcher]

i'm very very pleased to announce that those few days at ambient in the keg really helped it out!

it's not perfect, but it's MUCH better and very drinkable. i feel if i could have left it out a day or two more she might be smack bang on the money, but right now, it's still awesome. tonight i just put it back in, let it cool down as much as i could (probably sampled it at about 10ishC on the way to 3C) and the sweetness is only VERY subtle now. i was sort of hunting for it with panic. would be completely gone with a day or two, but with a bit more carbonation i think this will mask it and it'll be great for me and the drinkers on christmas eve.

thank you all so much. looks like i rushed it in the keg which i'll certainly not do from now on

merry christmas all!

 

[fletcher]

i'm very very pleased to announce that those few days at ambient in the keg really helped it out!

it's not perfect, but it's MUCH better and very drinkable. i feel if i could have left it out a day or two more she might be smack bang on the money, but right now, it's still awesome. tonight i just put it back in, let it cool down as much as i could (probably sampled it at about 10ishC on the way to 3C) and the sweetness is only VERY subtle now. i was sort of hunting for it with panic. would be completely gone with a day or two, but with a bit more carbonation i think this will mask it and it'll be great for me and the drinkers on christmas eve.

thank you all so much. looks like i rushed it in the keg which i'll certainly not do from now on

merry christmas all!

am finishing this beer and my Christmas wheat beer off over the weekend and they're both tasting amazing. cheers all for the help.