Dedicated Rims Guide, Problems & Solution Thread

[Blackened]

yeah, it'd work.

You'd have to give some thought to the flow dynamics in there especially for the purposes of cleaning, given that you couldn't really open it up to inspect/physically clean the unit. Square things, 90 bends, dead corners etc.... chemical cleaning can be less effective of there are many of those things in a CIP situation.

You also have to think about whether it really is "high surface area" - most pf the electric frypans I've seen are just a round element fused to the back of an aluminium plate. So what you have is basically a heat sink that you hope will distribute the energy from a not very high surface area element, across a wider area. Having watched water boil in my electric frypan, all the action tends to be in a circle that is directly over the element, which leads me to think that perhaps in a liquid contact situation, the metal doesn't do that great a job of spreading the heat around.

Still, two frypans, two elements, two times what possibly limited heat sinking you might get from the metal.... its going to be lower dednsity than a lot of other rims solutions.

Steam through a coil... that'd work too, but I reckon you'd be making your life pretty hard for not a lot of benefit. If you are going to have coils and stuff flowing through them, and potentially other separate vessels for heating up the stuf...... might as well just go with a HERMS. If ou like your original idea better though... think creatively. Boiling water pumped through is also 100 and will work just fine, you just need to design it so the contact surface area will transfer enough heat. Steam is likely to be hotter than 100 anyway... so why not use a heat transfer fluid that also gets hotter - like oil. Then you dont have to worry about closed pressure systems and you can just use a pump (although I dont know which sort of pumps would be suitable) or set it up so it thermo syphons.

A rims can be complicated, or stupidly simple - up to you.

Think of an electric kettle from the shop.... your pump puts wort into the kettle, the wort runs out through the kettle spout back into your mash tun. The only other thing required to make that a "rims" is a way to control the temperature. Everything else is basically just window dressing.

Re: surface area, I get what you mean, but when I'm not aiming for boiling point I'm hoping the heat transfer to the surrounding material will be sufficient.
Re: steam, well.... I have some "steam" producing equipment already as well as a nice bit of wound copper tube to fit inside a 50mm tube. But as you say, it's an indirect method of applying heat, with the associated lag and probably a challenge to get temp control working, more so than direct heating anyway.
Re:CIP I hadn't considered trying that. I was intending for a design that could be dismantled. But if I were to make it round, inlet in the edge flowing along the inner wall and takeoff in the centre that would make it CIP maybe.
Hehe funny you should mention kettles, I was just looking at SS kettles on the weekend for just this purpose. I don't like the base on the ones I could find. I don't want one that "sits" on the power socket, rather one that is hard wired or old style plugin.

 

[redbeard]

looking at elements for my 600mm tube.
whats thoughts one this one
http://www.stoveconnection.com.au/shop/ind...s/kz24hq00.html

Its Nickel Copper Plated not Incalloy / SS but at 440mm should be low density. $25 is cheap enough to take a punt
Is your probe at the end or in the tee ?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Re: surface area, I get what you mean, but when I'm not aiming for boiling point I'm hoping the heat transfer to the surrounding material will be sufficient.
Re: steam, well.... I have some "steam" producing equipment already as well as a nice bit of wound copper tube to fit inside a 50mm tube. But as you say, it's an indirect method of applying heat, with the associated lag and probably a challenge to get temp control working, more so than direct heating anyway.
Re:CIP I hadn't considered trying that. I was intending for a design that could be dismantled. But if I were to make it round, inlet in the edge flowing along the inner wall and takeoff in the centre that would make it CIP maybe.
Hehe funny you should mention kettles, I was just looking at SS kettles on the weekend for just this purpose. I don't like the base on the ones I could find. I don't want one that "sits" on the power socket, rather one that is hard wired or old style plugin.

I'm not recommending CIP, the opposite in fact, I just assumed incorrectly that you'd be fusing the two faces together irreversibly. Much much better to be able to pull it apart and physically inspect it as well as physically clean it.

I'm still not convinced that the plates will give you any real advantage from a surface area perspective, but then again, I cant see that they present any actual disadvantages either - so no reason to not give it a whirl.

You will be somewhat less "efficient" than an immersed element where the heat has nowhere to go other than directly into the liquid.... but thats no real issue, rims elements dont need to be all that powerful anyway.

If you have dteam generating equipment - consider doirect injection of steam into the mash.... I have no idea of the benefits/detriments of doing that, but I know its been done on a HB scale before and would be the most bang for your energy buck.

Anyhow, it sounds like youhave a few equipment and fabrication options at your disposal - you can muck about with a few alternatives and just see what works, worst comes to worst, you can just default back to the standard models that are the common RIMS option and be confident that they are "known to work"

Have fun

TB

 

[barls]

Its Nickel Copper Plated not Incalloy / SS but at 440mm should be low density. $25 is cheap enough to take a punt
Is your probe at the end or in the tee ?

in the outlet.
might just grab one and then deal with it.

 

[vortex]

Has anyone used the elements CB sell, and have any feedback on their quality and performance?
http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=3853

Looking to buy two, one for the HLT the other for the RIMS tube, naturally.

 

[NickB]

I used them for a while. Went through 8 or so (a known issue) before I bit the bullet and grabbed the elements from the post a few above. Happy with them, but a pain to seal initially.

The Keg King elements that CB sells have apparently had the problems fixed, but honestly, I still don't trust them.

Cheers

 

[vortex]

I used them for a while. Went through 8 or so (a known issue) before I bit the bullet and grabbed the elements from the post a few above. Happy with them, but a pain to seal initially.

The Keg King elements that CB sells have apparently had the problems fixed, but honestly, I still don't trust them.

Cheers

Oh, I didn't know they were the same as the KegKing elements. Might steer clear in that case.

 

[NickB]

Yep, that's exactly what they are. As mentioned, I have asked Ross a couple of times about whether the new batch have had any issues, and have heard good things. But once bitten, and all that. I'll stick to my HWS elements thank you!

 

[vortex]

Thanks for your comments. One of the local guys has a way of fixing up the elements as well, could be worth a punt if there's been some good reports at least if I can get them fixed locally.

 

[raven19]

To fix them, you need to cut into them at the base - something that is not ideal imo.

Awesome Fury has also gone through a few of these elements also with similar issues to NickB as I understand.

With the RIMS system you can get away with higher element heat densities, as the liquid strips heat from the element as it flows past the element.

 

[mash head]

Some questions re elements
1 is there a way of calculating how much heat an element will deliver to a liquid based on its wattage or is the density more important.
2 are people using a variable resistor to control the heat out put or just switching them on and off (via controller)at full power.
The idea of controlling mash temps with electricity appeal because of the accuracy you can achieve.

 

[Blackened]

Some questions re elements
1 is there a way of calculating how much heat an element will deliver to a liquid based on its wattage or is the density more important.
2 are people using a variable resistor to control the heat out put or just switching them on and off (via controller)at full power.
The idea of controlling mash temps with electricity appeal because of the accuracy you can achieve.

1. Not sure. Water requires a specific amount of energy to gain 1C per unit time. It should be a fairly simple formula using the element wattage (minus some losses) but I've never looked into it.

2. You won't find a variable resistor to control an element in the power range required for a RIMS. I intend on a predictive computer driven on/off system, many others use PID controllers (also on/off). You could also use a Variac, but that would require manual adjustment to get your desired temp (not out of the question, but it would be a full time job keeping an eye on it). There are other methods of AC power control too, PWM being one. But essentially the same problem as with the variac. Probably more useful to throttle the pump as you don't need to control the flow with huge degrees of accuracy.

HTH

 

[431neb]

What have I done? I just purchased a KK heat stick with the idea of doing RIMs in my 50 litre keg MLT.

Are the KK heat sticks still **** or have they been improved?

Sorry to wake up an old thread, I think this is the best place for my questions.

Also, before I get my head around buying the right PID (I can see that will be a steep learning curve for me ), can I control the heat stick with an appropriately reprogrammed STC 1000? ie Set the delays to minimum and let it turn the stick on and off (a lot I'm guessing) in order to maintain an appropriate temperature?

Apologies for the noob RIMS questions but I can see I'm in the right place for an expert "answer".



Edit to remove smutty inuendo that might prevent me from getting a useful response. I can't help myself.

 

[pilgrimspiss]

I just put two of the KK elements in my boil kettle. Looks good to me. I've completed 5 brews across them with no problems. I'm running two burst fire style controllers (AC 220V 4000W SCR Motor Speed Controller Voltage Regulator) on them in case I had scorching issues, but they are sweet so far and no scorching. I clean them after each boil. Ever only get a slight calcification on them. Just wipes off.

I've built a custom RIMS tube with a 3600W element in the bottom controlled by PID for my small brew rig....it cranks, with no scorching. As long as the flow rate is decent (I use a LBP). Ramp time for MLT from 18C to 55C is about 10 minutes. 55C to any mash temp or mash out is about 5 minutes.

Good Luck!
Matty

 

[431neb]

Thanks Matty. The voltage regulators are just manually set? So you can turn them down to prevent scorching and/or control your boil?

Is that like these?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2000W-220V-AC-SCR-Electric-Voltage-Regulator-Motor-Speed-Control-Controller-/310912807808?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4863d8f380&_uhb=1

For those that don't click on the link above I thought I would include this classic quote from the ebay advert.

"This controller uses novel bi-directional high-power SCR. It can be very convenient adjust the current up to 25A, and solve the over current problem of the heating wire resistance is too small in the case of cooling causing good."


And Matty (or anyone), if I still have your attention. Can I run one of those heatsticks on an STC? I wanna brew tomorrow.

I think I'm gonna have a crack. If it gets fried it's not a huge expense.

Also, do the PIDs have the ability to regulate voltage as well?

 

[pilgrimspiss]

Thanks Matty. The voltage regulators are just manually set? So you can turn them down to prevent scorching and/or control your boil?

Is that like these?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2000W-220V-AC-SCR-Electric-Voltage-Regulator-Motor-Speed-Control-Controller-/310912807808?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4863d8f380&_uhb=1

For those that don't click on the link above I thought I would include this classic quote from the ebay advert.

"This controller uses novel bi-directional high-power SCR. It can be very convenient adjust the current up to 25A, and solve the over current problem of the heating wire resistance is too small in the case of cooling causing good."


And Matty (or anyone), if I still have your attention. Can I run one of those heatsticks on an STC? I wanna brew tomorrow.

I think I'm gonna have a crack. If it gets fried it's not a huge expense.

Also, do the PIDs have the ability to regulate voltage as well?

Yep thats them. Make sure you get the correct wattage output though. Your's will be 2200W. The 2000W one would probably run it slightly less than boiling but don't quote me. I got 4000w each output to be sure Yes you just turn the knob up and down for hotter or colder pretty much. I only did that for the boil kettle though as the RIMS element is controlled by the PID.

SCR = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon-controlled_rectifier

Yes you could run it off an STC they just aren't as accurate so i'm led to believe. If you run it with another thermometer in your mash you should be able to adjust for any discrepancies . Wire your STC to a plug outlet in a box might be the go. Put it in a jiffy box or a tupperware container if your not worried about little ones getting into it. ( I attached a photo of mine, that's how I heat / run my HLT)

You will have way less chance of burning it out in a RIMS situation as it will pulse on and off to maintain temperature. I don't think PID's ramp voltage up and down I think they pulse on/off like an STC just way faster. Not 100% sure. someone smarter than myself may have to chime in.

Cheers
Matty

 

[pilgrimspiss]

If your using the STC with a RIMS tube you may have to stuff around with the STC probe in a thermowell at the RIMS outlet somehow. Most PID's with a PT100 probe are threaded and you can screw the probe into the tube in direct contact with wort. The STC probe is a hard wired plastic probe. I used a stainless thermowell on my HLT.

Cheers
Matty

 

[431neb]

Awesome stuff. Thanks fella.

I fitted the heat stick to my MLT earlier tonight. Luckily I had exactly the right size knockout punch for the stick.

It sits bloody high in the mash tun though ( I'm not going down the rims tube path as you can tell), so I'll need a lot of wort under the false bottom before I even start to wet out the mash. Seems like my batch sparges are gonna get smaller. I've been contemplating fly sparging so I hope I have enough volume left for a useful one.

 

[431neb]

Quick update.

I installed the KK heat stick and used it to ramp to strike temp using an STC. I set the compressor delay to the minimum (.3 degrees) and shoved the probe into a thermowell that is fitted in the side of the keg opposite the outlet (with the KK heat stick in-between). Long story short the KK element holds a bit of heat so the ramp overshot by about 2 degrees. That was just in water. I can compensate for that and I did , but mash behaved a bit differently (surprise! duh), so there was some turning on and off manually to tweak temps. I was only aiming for a single infusion mash but because I was circulating I was losing temp so I had to stir around the stick at one stage to prevent scorching. There wasn't a trace of scorching on the stick by the way. I was surprised at that because it ran for about 5 mins of full tilt while immersed in the mash grist and all.

I haven't organised a falsie yet but I noticed that 13 litres of water is only barely over the heat stick. That means that when I'm doing single batches (rare) I'll have to use a lot of strike water relative to the amount of grist in order to keep a little space between the stick and the falsie. I'm starting to get a feel for why a RIMs tube seems to be the most popular way of making this happen. Never mind , I have a 32mm hole in my mash tun now that needs using so I'll battle on. She'll be right.

 

[The Gas Man]

I have just did my first couple of batches using my new keg king rims and element. I am currently using a keg king temperature controller to control rims /mash temp. The temp probe is mounted at the outlet do the rims. The trouble is that when the element turns on it always overshoots by as much as 5c, despite a relatively constant mash pump flow. I have adjusted the hysteresis and delay times but no improvement.

With a set point of 68c the rims outlet probe is reading up to 73c but the temp in the mash itself is only about 63c. Obviously I'm not to thrilled with this control and I'm thinking about ditching the kk controllers for a proper Uberins pid and rtd sensor.

Any other thoughts on how to improve this process control?