Decoction Mashing A Hefeweizen

[Norsman]

Hello, tomorrow is Brew day and I'm doing a hefe for the first time. I am also planning on doing a single decoction for the first time. I plan on doughing in at 55*C then decocting to raise to 68*C for the 1 hour rest.

When I dough-in should I immediately take out a portion of the grist to do the decoction, or should I let the entire grist sit at protein rest temps for a while before removing some?

BTW I don't want to have my mash sitting at protein rest for too long - 20 min max. Don't want to ruin the head. Any help old experienced and wise brewers?

 

[tangent]

PM Dr.Gonzo
He's a wheat-decoction freak!

 

[Weizguy]

Hello, tomorrow is Brew day and I'm doing a hefe for the first time. I am also planning on doing a single decoction for the first time. I plan on doughing in at 55*C then decocting to raise to 68*C for the 1 hour rest.

When I dough-in should I immediately take out a portion of the grist to do the decoction, or should I let the entire grist sit at protein rest temps for a while before removing some?

BTW I don't want to have my mash sitting at protein rest for too long - 20 min max. Don't want to ruin the head. Any help old experienced and wise brewers?

20-30 min is good for a protein rest. U won't ruin the head, as it breaks down the large proteins into smaller head-forming ones. IIRC, about 52-53C is best for that rest, for a weizen. Need to consult my German wheat beer book.

Let the entire grist rest at that temp, as it will rehydrate, activate enzymes and disolve starch for the later steps.

Have just done this recently, but need my brew notes for detail. My beer was a triple-decocted job, and has been distributed in the NSW Xmas case 2006 swap. One of the best weizens I've ever made, IMHO.

Seth the Weizenbrauer

 

[Steve Lacey]

20-30 min is good for a protein rest. U won't ruin the head, as it breaks down the large proteins into smaller head-forming ones. IIRC, about 52-53C is best for that rest, for a weizen. Need to consult my German wheat beer book.

Which means pull your decoction after about 10 to 15 minutes. By the time you have taken it through the 70 deg conversion and the got it up to boiling for 10 minutes or so, the main mash will have been at protein rest temp for a good 30 minutes. As Les says, that's fine.

Also, don't be shy about how much grist you pull for the decoction either. It takes a fair proprtion of it to bring that temperature up because you also get some heat loss with your mash tun open and so on. I'm only guesstimating, but I'd say you will need to pull over half your grist to get from 55 up to 68. Any advances on a half? if you have more precise information on this aspect, please disregard my unasked for advice

 

[tdh]

I'll add that the ferulic acid rest at 43*C is more important than a protein rest.
It promotes the clove component typical of German wheat beers.

tdh

 

[shmick]

I'll add that the ferulic acid rest at 43*C is more important than a protein rest.
It promotes the clove component typical of German wheat beers.

tdh

I've had success mashing in very thick (2 l/kg) for 43C acid rest then infusing again to step up to 53C to get the final water/grist ration (around 3 l/kg).
Work backwards from 53C @ 3 l/kg to get your initial strike water volume & temp.

I get a fair bit of transfer heat loss doing decoctions.
With Beersmith decoction volume calcs I aim 3 to 4degC above my target and the heat loss brings it back to what I'm after.

 

[tangent]

acid rest is interesting - thanks tdh

anyone got an ideal step mash procedure for wheats?
all decoction, or a mixture of stepped infusion with a decoction?

 

[warrenlw63]

My last Weissbier I just infusion mashed at 65 degrees. Then I pulled a thin decotion (mainly liquid), boiled the guts out of it for 15 mins and added back to the bulk to bring up to mashout temps.

Made a terrific Weiss that was hard to tell apart from it's properly decoction mashed contemporaries. IMO more of the secret lies in the starter, pitching and correct fermentation temperatures to achieve the right profile. OTOH a full scale decoction isn't going to do any harm either. It just does my head in when I attempt it. :beer:

Warren -

 

[DJR]

I was looking up some info about ferulic acid rests, strange thing is that ferulic acid esterase, which breaks down the ferulic acid to pentosan bond in the cell wall, is most active at 70C. Seems like something to do with cell wall breakdown than anything else which makes it 43C. I'd say you'd probably get enough ferulic in the mash anyway at normal single infusion temps, which the yeast can then make 4 vinyl guaicol from. A 43C rest won't hurt, but again, if you don't have the right yeast the ferulic won't get converted to 4VG which gives the characteristic flavour.

As an experiment in masochism my Weizen (first one) is going to be a double decocted 43-60-70 schedule, with about 75% wheat including some unmalted. I'll be adding a lot of rice hulls and keeping the sparge temp at about 80C (i batch sparge) to make sure it runs off properly. Since i now have Profix i'm going to add some in in the first decocted portion to help break up the proteins a bit more too, since the boil will inactivate it anyway it can't hurt to have some more FAN in the mash, if the effect sucks, i've only affected about 30% of the mash.

Unfortunately my Schneider reculture got infected so i won't be using that, but i have some W68 anyway from a yeast swap :beer:

 

[Steve Lacey]

As an experiment in sadism my Weizen (first one) is going to be a double decocted 43-60-70 schedule

Sadism? So you will have someone else doing the brewing for you?

 

[DJR]

Sadism? So you will have someone else doing the brewing for you?

Masochism... pedantic so and so... :lol:

 

[Steve Lacey]

Masochism... pedantic so and so... :lol:

:beer:

Get someone to help and then you'll be indulging in a spot of S&M! :lol:

 

[Anachi]

Ahh is not as bad as everyone seems to make out. My first weizen (5th AG brew) was done with a double decotion. Like shmick we doughed in thick at 43 for 15 min then infused to 53 for a 30 min rest. We then pulled a big and very thick decoction which we held at 70 for 20 then boiled for 20 before returning to mash to raise to first sach at 66 for 20 min. We then pulled out second decoction which was smaller and not as thick (but not thin) and boiled it for 20 returning to mash to raise to second sach at 70 and left for 50 min (once starch test passed). We then sparged at 75 (colder than planned, woops).

The beer was great. Reminded me off drinking weizen from the tap in germany (if i was more into beer at the time i would be able to tell you who's brew it was). Tried some non-decoction methods for a few other weizens and they had nothing on the first.

NB. The size of our pulls was calculated by promash as what would be needed to hit the next temp.

 

[tangent]

so it's generally 43, 53, 66, 70, 80 sparge?

or say f^ck it, and single infuse at 66C, mash out, and use a handfull of melanoidin? h34r:

 

[Anachi]

Its worth it, just leave yourself a few good hours to do the mash otherwise you will be stressing out about how long things are taking. Plus if you do it you can proudly say you have done a double decoction

 

[Chris]

Im a fan of doughing in at 40, infusing to 50 then pulling a decoction to 67, finally followed by an infusion to 72.
From my notes I havnt noticed any difference from letting the decoction sit at a conversion temp before boiling, I think with modern fully modified malts there is still enough enzymes left in the mash to convert the boiled part - and the beauty of the 40 rest is that you can leave it until the pH lowers to a perfect 5.5 or so.
So I leave it at the 50 rest for about 15 minutes, pull a decoction and bring it straight to a boil.
Seems pretty close to everyone else but its what pulls my chain.

Cheers

 

[Weizguy]

I consulted my Brew notes and found that I misled you all about the NSW Kase weizen. Not only does it use JW Wheat malt, the mash schedule was a two-step infusion at 50 and 65 C. Still a great beer. To quote Warner (p 96) - "If there is no alternative other than to use an infusion mash, then use a step infusion mash that emphasises the protease and amylase temperature optima."

It was my recent Dunkelweizen that had the Warner-recommended double-decoction. The temps I achieved were close, but not exactly the same as the recommended 35, 50, 64, 72. I got 38 - 51 - 64 - 72 and mash out at 76.

According to Warner, a lengthy protein rest is recommended. Many breweries allegedly using a staggered protein rest, for example at 47, 50 and 52, to cover the various temp optima of the 3 enzyme groups.

He also suggests that a double decoction should allow 3 and a half hours. This accounts for a 10-15 minute saccarification rest at 70C, raising the temp to boiling over 10-15 minutes and a decoction boil of under 20 minutes at each stage (longer for a Dunkelweizen).

Also, boil long, for a wheat beer. 90 min at least. 120 for a dunkelweizen or weizenbock

Enough details for ya?

Seth

 

[Norsman]

Update... I opted for the double decoction.

Infused at 45*C,
pulled decoc. raised to 55*C.
Pulled second decoc. and aimed at raising to 67-68*C. ----- This is where things got a bit ugly.

After dumping my final decoction back into the mash/lauter tun I quickly took a temp reading without stirring. I nearly freaked when I saw 80*C on the thermometer. At the time I didn't realize that the temp I was reading was high because I hadn't mixed the decoction in with the remainder of the mash. So I poured in 1/2 liter of cold water to drop it down.

I then realized that I should probably mix it around... and the temp dropped rapidly to about 70*C. This was still higher than I was hopping for so I left the lid open for a few min. Temp is now sitting stable at 67*C.

Did I hurt my enzymes too much by overshooting my sacch. temp?

Did letting the mash temp drop down re-activate my beta amylase, or were they pretty much screwed at 70*C?

BTW I did use 42% high DP (~125) pale malt in my grain bill.

 

[Stuster]

It sounds like you got the temperature down pretty quickly so it should be fine, especially with some high DP malt in there.

 

[tangent]

Its worth it, just leave yourself a few good hours to do the mash otherwise you will be stressing out about how long things are taking. Plus if you do it you can proudly say you have done a double decoction

Oh i've done a triple decoction mash before. I'm over it.