Consistently Sweet Brews

[NDH]

Hi All,

My fermenter hasn't been empty since I bought it a few months ago and I've been brewing mostly ales. They've mostly been simple kits with LME:

-Coopers Lager with Coopers Light LME, cap yeast(coopers carb drops) (3 months old)
-Coopers English Bitter with 500g LDME/250g Maltodextrin/250g Dextrose, cap yeast (coopers carb drops)
-Thomas Coopers Sparkling Ale with 1/2 can Caramalt LME and 1/2 can Wheat LME, cap yeast (bulk primed)

There are a few more subsoquently with similar kit and LME styles but the ones mention above are theoretically matured enough to drink. Problem is they have all come out incredibly sweet. Whats got me buggered is my mate who does identical brews doesnt get the sweetness, bulk priming didnt fix it so that eliminates secondary ferment issues.

All I can come up with as a point of difference is that I use a no rinse sanitiser and brew at a couple of degrees higher temp (21 degs) than my mate, I also leave in the fermenter for a week after fermentation has stopped. The bloke at the HBS assured me the no rinse sanitiser won't effect flavour but the 3 brews mentioned above and a few others all have the same over powering sweet taste which doesn't mellow out even after a few months in the bottle.

Has anyone else had similar issues, is leaving it on the trub for too long giving it some bad flavours? I was under the impression this helps with flavour but perhaps not. I just don't know what to alter to eliminate the sweetness. Perhaps I'm being too impatient and should leave them longer.

Cheers

NDH

 

[manticle]

What are your finishing gravities?

The sweetness will come from unfermented/residual sugar.

Leaving on the trub for a week will be no problem and not a contributor.

 

[zebba]

My understanding was that if you fermented at a lower temp for a longer time you got a drier finish. Can someone confirm/deny this?

 

[bullfrog]

Are your sweet tastes fruit flavoured at all, or does your brew just taste like there's too much unfermented sugar in it?

 

[crundle]

The key is likely to be your final gravity. If you haven't got one already, invest in a hydrometer so you can work out what your final gravity is.

By using LME and maltodextrin, you are introducing some residual sugars into your beer, but the amounts don't seem to be over the top however.

Try a kit for your next attempt, but just use dextrose for the extra sugar in the primary, instead of LME and maltodextrin. The dextrose should attenuate almost completely, leaving a nice dry beer. If this occurs, then it may be the amounts of other sugar you are using that are coming into play.

The other thing to look at might be the yeast you are using. The tins might be a bit old, and the yeast may not be as healthy as you would like, or it may be how you are rehydrating the yeast. Dry yeast likes to be rehydrated gently in water for a bit before being thrown into the fermenter, which gives it more and healthier yeast to get your fermentation underway.

It is a bit hard on the information you have given to pinpoint exactly where the sweetness is coming from, so if you can take hydrometer readings for the next brew that would help greatly.

Hope this was of some help, and keep brewing, you will get the dry beer you desire!

Crundle

 

[NDH]

Cheers for the fast response guys

Nah not fruity flavours its just sweet, unfermented sugars sound like the probable issue but how do I eliminate it?

I can't remember my FG's off the top of my head (I know I should be taking notes on these things) but I'm assuming higher FG means more residual sugar?

As Zebba said I'm brewing at a relatively low temp which I understood to be a good thing, I've been all over these forums picking up bits and pieces of wisdom but when a pale, sparkling and amber all have the same overpowering taste I think something's wrong...

NDH

 

[chadjaja]

How long do you ferment for? Two weeks will usually make most kit brews hit their FG regardless of being in the cooler range. Kit beers though do have yeasts that don't tolerate low temps as much as a good safale yeast though.

 

[NDH]

I don't rehydrate my yeast (yet), just pitch dry but I usually check the tins and they're generally close to a year off expiring. I'll consult old mate at the HBS next brew and let him know my dilemma, he's been great thus far. (cheeky plug for Brew Maker at Holden Hill, SA)

I'm gonna go a head and note down some gravity readings on the next one too, I guess the more I know about it the better I can pin point the issue if it keeps rearing its sugary head.

Cheers again

NDH

 

[zebba]

As Zebba said I'm brewing at a relatively low temp which I understood to be a good thing, I've been all over these forums picking up bits and pieces of wisdom but when a pale, sparkling and amber all have the same overpowering taste I think something's wrong...

Actually I would have said your temp was a little high.

 

[bullfrog]

I'm with Zebba, I'd be bringing the temp down to ~18 degrees, but 21 isn't high enough to be killing the yeast before it can reach full attenuation, so I don't think the temperature is causing the sweetness.

 

[manticle]

Temperature won't result in malt sweetness unless it gets to low and the ferment stalls. You need to encourage better attenuation from the yeast which can be difficult with extract brewing.

Try replacing a part of the malt with dextrose, try rehydrating the yeast or getting a highly attenuative liquid yeast and making a starter. Alternatively add some invert sugar or some dissolved dextrose a few days into primary.

Also measure your final gravities - if they are sitting much above 1015 they will probably be quite sweet. You may be able to twist your way around it by adding more bittering hops.

21 is fine - 18 -20 is usually the recommended range but keeping it in the low 20s and keeping it consistent shouldn't cause major dramas.

 

[SunDrifter]

Maybe i've overlooked this, but are you using any hops at all?

I've found that some of my earlier brews, using only the hopped malt extract and unhopped LME that my beer ended up being too malty-sweet as well.

I'm still maturing some of my later batches that have started getting a lot of hop additions so I'm hoping that'll cure it.

Either way, get some hops into ya!

 

[bullfrog]

+1 to adding hops, even if you just start with teabags.

But if NDH has a mate who is doing identical brews and not suffering from over-sweetness then there's probably a problem somewhere else, too.

NDH, have you tasted your mates brew, or has he just told you that his isn't too sweet? Could it be that you both just have different tastes and he prefers a sweeter, more malty beer?

 

[manticle]

Only bittering/flavour hops will have much of an effect. Aroma hopping will add negligible bitterness.

 

[NDH]

Nah I've tasted his and its a far sight better than what I've come up with, mind you he's a sly ******* and might have a few other bits in there he's not telling me about.

I reckon he might be rehydrating his yeast though as another point of difference. I was under the impression the dry yeast in the international/premium range of coopers kits were of reasonable quality anyway which is why I've not bothered with a different yeast.

I'll try the rehdration trick with the yeast, maybe lash out on a safale or something as I figure its better for the brew even if its not the reason for the sweetness.

I've got a keg of coopers sparkling kit chilling in the fridge as we speak. I did a boil of a few spec grains, hops and some fermentables. The LHBS do a pre mixed kit that I boiled and strained into the fermenter, so I'm not real sure on quantities.
I figured along the same lines as SunDrifter/Bullfrog that adding a few hops might counter it. With any luck I've made some progress.

I'd love to brew at 18 degrees but I don't have the means in this weather unfortunately.

A few people have mentioned malty sweetness and thats probably what I'd liken it to. Too much malt for just the kit concentrate. maybe.

NDH

 

[bullfrog]

If you want rudimentary temperature control, NDH, take yourself down to Bunnings and grab a tub that is big enough to fit your fermenter in (I got 2 x 83L tubs for $20 each). When you put your brew on, sit the fermenter in the tub, add some water and drop in a frozen water bottle or two. If you want to lower your temperature, just add another water bottle.

That's the system that I'm using at the moment to keep my temps low, until I get my new fermenting fridge, and it works a treat.

EDIT: Spelling...apparently I was advising the purchase of a tuba...

 

[RobboMC]

My acid test would be a can of Coopers Australian Pale Ale and one kg of Brew Enhancer 2 as recommended on the label.

If this comes out sweet then you have a problem. Check the use by dates on the bottom of the cans and choose the one with the date most in the future ( the youngest can ) to get the best yeast.
Also kit cans from a HBS are usually treated better than supermarket cans, and the yeast is therefore in better condition when you get it.

I found that using a full 1.5 kg can of Liquid Malt Extract with a straight kit resulted in a malty sweet beer.
Nice if you like that, but the VB drinkers in my street didn't. Limit malt additions to a kit to around 750g unless
you're boiling in extra hops.

But I wouldn't be removing malt from your brews, as NDH suggets boil in some hops, maybe start with 15-20g of Goldings
in a 2 litre boil, will remove some sweetness and add flavour, now there's a path forward!

 

[chris.taylor.98]

I reckon he might be rehydrating his yeast though as another point of difference. I was under the impression the dry yeast in the international/premium range of coopers kits were of reasonable quality anyway which is why I've not bothered with a different yeast.

I'll try the rehdration trick with the yeast, maybe lash out on a safale or something as I figure its better for the brew even if its not the reason for the sweetness.

NDH

This would be my guess as to why its not fermenting out completely.

I know a lot of people have an aversion to rehydrating yeast prior to pitching, but if you don't you are basically ensuring that a significant amount of the little buggers will be DOA.

The problem for them is that in their dehydrated state the cell well can not function properly as a filter. If you pitch them straight into wort, they can take in too much sugars which will kill them.

Just rehydrate them into 500ml of pre-boiled water at about 27C. Let them sit for about 15mins or so.

The other thing to watch with dehydrated yeast is the common perception that you do not need to aerate the wort. We had one guy at the club that was getting sweet beers all the time with dehydrated yeast until he started aerating the wort prior to pitching.

And lastly if you start going for higher OG you really need more yeast. The packet they give you with the kits is barely adequate for a 1.050 OG beer. A couple more $ spent on more yeast is cheap insurance policy if it results in better beer.

By my calculations you really need about 11gms of dried yeast for a 1.050 OG beer.