Coeliac Brewer - 3kg Bries Sorghum, Cascade and French Aramis

[Oggz]

Hi, not sure i have posted on these forums at all yet, so let me introduce myself. I am Oggz , almost 2 years ago I found out i was Coeliac, so, good bye to all those yummy crafts beers that had become a favourite past time of mine. I had been gearing up to start brew for a while before i found out, I had been drinking myself a collection of coopers bottles.

So long story short, I refuse to pay $80-100 for a carton of GF beer...(sorry I know the person who owns O'Brians frequents here so I started buying GF kits from a place in Brisbane, Ginger beer and sorghum based beer. I have dabbled so far with Meads and ciders as well, all with varying results. the beers have probably only been 1 in every 10 brews i have put down.

At this point, i am kinda really missing beer.

So, recenlty after ready this place and googling, i found a local supplier of Bries sorghum malt which is half the price of where i used to get it. more beer! woot! so now to my problem.

I have 3kgs of sorghum malt, about 25gm of cascade and about 50gms of French Aramis, a pack of us-05 yeast and i am in need of a recipe to make beer .

Yes I spent about an hour last night looking through the recipes page, but didn't really find anything. I used to enjoy pale ales and IPA's which i believe both of these hops can used for.

I am more or less looking for suggestions about how much of what to add at the 60, 45 and flame out of a boil.


oh, i do have 24gm of galaxy in finishing hops bags, i was going to hop a cider with it....

So, any suggestions would be great.

Cheers
Oggz,
Gold Coast

 

[Oggz]

Well, No idea if what i ended up doing is gonna make something drinkable, but i followed what i have done in the past with the brewers Choice kits

1.5kg Bries Sorghum Malt in the pot, about 6-7 ltrs of water.

25gm of French Aramis - 60mins
15gm French Aramis - 45mins
10gm cascade - 0mins
10gm french aramis - 0mins

Wirlfloc tab - 5 mins.

Let it cool for about 2 hours,

1.5kg malt into the fermenter, bit of hot water to rinse the container.
Poured the wort in through the missus cooking sieve to catch what I could.

OG was 1040, nfi of temp when i pitched the yeast, but it was coolish on the coast yesterday

Taste test was interesting, quite bitter on the back of the tounge, didnt smell as hoppy as i would have liked, may dry hop later

Seems to be bubbling away nicely, so I will have something two week from now!

Cheers

 

[Lecterfan]

If I had to go GF then I would spend a heap of time investigating the all-grain version of GF brewing as the canned/extract version I tried to make were absolute rubbish, yet I think several GF beers are bloody beautiful. Google hard, source the right ingredients and you – like all all-grain brewers – will be laughing.

 

[Matt]

Good luck with this. I did a GF APA(-ish) brew late last year for a coeliac colleague. The colour, clarity and aroma were fantastic, but it was just over-the-top bitter, despite an OG of 1.052 and just 27 IBUs.

I'd read that sorghum stacked up well against citrusy American hops, and that might be the case for aroma / dry hopping, but the absence of any malt backbone meant that the modest bittering addition (17 IBU) was a kick in the nuts.

Have you experimented with Clarity Ferm in a 'normal' ie non-GF brew yet? If it works for you, it'll be much better than mucking about with sorghum.

 

[slcmorro]

Have you experimented with Clarity Ferm in a 'normal' ie non-GF brew yet? If it works for you, it'll be much better than mucking about with sorghum.

This. I made a honey red ale with Clarity Ferm, and my coeliac mate almost drank the entire keg himself in one night. Cracking little product, and no ill effects the next day either. At $6 a pop, I think this'd be cheaper than buying Sorghum and all that jazz anyways.

 

[paulyman]

I can't see experimenting with something like Clarity Ferm leading to anything but long term trouble for a Coeliac sufferer, my health isn't something I'd want to experiment with. Sure it may produce no short term effects, but unless it has been scientifically tested I'd avoid it personally.

Experimenting with hop schedules, sure. The worst that can happen is a couple of wasted batches.

Just my 2C.

 

[Oggz]

I would love you have the time and the $ to get into all grain brewing, i find the process fascinating at it appeals to my sense DIY, I just dont have the time to delve deep into that rabbit hole.

At the moment I will be happy to dive into supplied malts with additions to change the flavours.

I have done some research into using clarity firm, but its a no go for me, It will reduce, but no remove, not worth it for me.

I was just wondering, would something like molasses or adding brown sugar add more depth to help make up for the lack of malt flavour? or would it just add sugar?

Cheers

 

[Matplat]

Perhaps... Dark Belgian candi sugar would also be worth a go as I believe it is one of the significant flavour component in Belgian Trappist ales...

 

[wereprawn]

I would love you have the time and the $ to get into all grain brewing, i find the process fascinating at it appeals to my sense DIY, I just dont have the time to delve deep into that rabbit hole.

At the moment I will be happy to dive into supplied malts with additions to change the flavours.

I have done some research into using clarity firm, but its a no go for me, It will reduce, but no remove, not worth it for me.

I was just wondering, would something like molasses or adding brown sugar add more depth to help make up for the lack of malt flavour? or would it just add sugar?

Cheers

Can't help with the gluten free beer, but things like molasses and brown sugar should be used sparingly. They will leave an associated flavour. Drinking molasses flavoured beer, for example, isn't usually pleasant.
Small amounts, in the right beer. They really don't taste anything like malt once the associated sweetness is taken away though.

Good luck on your quest for beery goodness.

 

[Matplat]

http://www.pastemagazine.com/blogs/lists/2012/03/the-best-and-worst-gluten-free-beers.html

Apparently you can get barley with the gluten extracted.... god knows where from though. Malted buckwheat may also be worth a try?

 

[mckenry]

I can't see experimenting with something like Clarity Ferm leading to anything but long term trouble for a Coeliac sufferer, my health isn't something I'd want to experiment with. Sure it may produce no short term effects, but unless it has been scientifically tested I'd avoid it personally.

Experimenting with hop schedules, sure. The worst that can happen is a couple of wasted batches.

Just my 2C.

Hey Paulyman - are you a coeliac, or a gluten ontolerant?
I have a coeliac mate and have made three APA's for him, using Sorghum goo. A serious coeliac will know within minutes if it contains gluten. My SIL and all her kids have it, along with this mate I brew for and another brewer mate. The SIL, her kids and the guy I brew for all get a pain in their sides within minutes of consuming gluten. The brewer mate is gluten intolerant, so maybe long term issues if he has no immediate symptoms.
So its not really experimenting with their health. Theyll know and not go back.
As for my recipes, theyve all been goo, C hops and US05 and as Matt said, they looked and smelt fantastic. I really liked them too. No extra bitterness in any I have done.

 

[flocculated]

I just listened to an episode of the Basic Brewing Radio podcast where they discussed an experiment with Clarity Ferm.

They managed to get their beers less than 5 ppm gluten, even lower in some circumstances. Still might be too high for some people but an interesting listen anyhow...
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=basic-brewing-radio-2014 (scroll down to Sept 4, 2014).

Also here is a write up of the results:
http://beerandwinejournal.com/clarity-ferm-i/

 

[Mikeyr]

My wife is highly gluten intolerant (not coeliac diagnosed, has not bothered to do the tests as it's bloody obvious) A very small incidental amount of gluten sets her off very demonstrably. (It's in a lot more foods than i knew of and I've been in the FMCG industry my entire life!)

As a beer drinker by preference since her teens, this was a bit of a downer. It came on in her 40's.

I made her a few batches of GF and have purchased a fair amount on OBriens! I must say i had fun malting my own buckwheat and using Rice and Sorghum concentrate, but it was never quite the same.

I've did a LOT of reading and came upon the Clarity Ferm debate. I tried a couple and have been using Clarity Ferm in every brew for 2 years.

Personally its a fail in my estimation forgetting rid of chill haze....BUT Jacqui now regularly drinks a session of my treated brews with no effect. (well no gluten impact!) Zip...nada ...not even and to quote Rik Mayall a "bottom burp"

White Labs doubled the dose of enzyme last year or early the year before as a lot of people are using for this purpose.

If any gluten is life threatening for you i would not suggest you use it, however if it's not life threatening and worth your while to make up even a small amount of regular beer, worth a try in my opinion. Jacqui only needs a mouthful or two of non treated beer to get a reaction, our initial testing was mouthfuls!

This is one of the most recent "experiments" I've read and seems to have been done pretty thoroughly.

http://beerandwinejournal.com/clarity-ferm-iii/

If you do decide to stick with GF brews, i had a lot of fun freaking out my kids by making up large quantities of popcorn (useful adjunct for head) and the whole malting process with the buckwheat, which does need to be used in smaller amounts as has a big flavour! Oh and Chia ........ I now know what to do if I run out of Araldite!

Cheers

Mike

Edit: Floculated: didn't see you had quoted the same report!

 

[Mikeyr]

Oh and the Belgian Candy is a good adjunct, much cleaner than molasses, and for a DYI'er another thing to boil up on the stove!

 

[paulyman]

Hey Paulyman - are you a coeliac, or a gluten ontolerant?
I have a coeliac mate and have made three APA's for him, using Sorghum goo. A serious coeliac will know within minutes if it contains gluten. My SIL and all her kids have it, along with this mate I brew for and another brewer mate. The SIL, her kids and the guy I brew for all get a pain in their sides within minutes of consuming gluten. The brewer mate is gluten intolerant, so maybe long term issues if he has no immediate symptoms.
So its not really experimenting with their health. Theyll know and not go back.
As for my recipes, theyve all been goo, C hops and US05 and as Matt said, they looked and smelt fantastic. I really liked them too. No extra bitterness in any I have done.

Not celiac myself, but have friends who are. The linked clarity ferm is interesting, but isn't a scientific paper.

Here is an interesting paper, that highlights that Australia is (or rather was until the current government pushed us back 20 years) ahead of the game in science. It is looking at the validity of the tests they used in the above linked article. Again it isn't a scientific paper, but I have highlighted the important bit, there are still gluten protein fragments and there is no reliable scientific data to say whether those fragments cause any long term issues.

http://www.celiaccentral.org/research-news/study-validates-r5-competitive-elisa-10134/pg--1/

In North America and Australia there is a different view on this topic, in particular because mass-spectrometry based methods are evolving and these methods allow gluten protein fragments to be detected in those beers. There is controversy on the medical significance of these fragments as no intervention studies are available confirming or disproving potential toxicity of these fragments. In Australia the detection of gluten, no matter of the concentration, inhibits a gluten-free claim.

 

[Matt]

paulyman - the article you linked says the test is valid, it accurately detects the level of gluten in fermented beverages, "...there are a number of beers with a gluten-free claim on the market and no adverse observations and complaints by the consumers have evolved so far", and "...[in] Europe, this test is accepted by legislators who allow a gluten-free claim on the product."

There are no reliable scientific data about whether consuming fermented hopped sorghum beverages causes any long term issues, either (other than the usual health risks associated with alcohol consumption), but if somebody refused to brew them on that basis alone we wouldn't say they were 'ahead of the game in science'.

 

[paulyman]

I am aware the article states the test is valid at detecting gluten, that isn't the issue.

You miss quoted me. We are ahead of the game because we are pioneering the use of modern mass spectrometry methods, which can detect not just gluten but gluten protein fragments. It states quite clearly that it is currently unknown whether these fragments cause issues. It also states that in Australia our regulatory bodies consider any detectable gluten to void a gluten free label.

So yes the test can detect gluten, it shows there is less than 5 ppm, which is enough to stop it being labelled gluten free in Australia if it were a commercial product.

 

[Oggz]

At the end of the day guys, Its all going to be down to personal preference. I personally would not drink a malt brew with clarity firm used to reduce gluten content. I don't trust it and I haven't read anything yet to change my mind.

But, that is just me, personally, I would probably not have a reaction to a very low gluten beer. I drink a corona every now and then, I have never had a reaction that caused me problem. But its not the reaction that i have the issue with, its what is not being felt, because any gluten will cause and the immune response which is the big factor for a coeliac.

When i found out i was Coeliac, they found 14mm lumps(yes multiple) in my small intestine. It was 38 years of lymph nodes in over drive because of the gluten i had been consuming. One year later, after another CT scan, no lumps.

That is enough for me, eat gluten, die early of bowel cancer. Dont eat gluten, hopefully not die early of cancer because of all the gluten I had eaten and enjoy my living with my two kids.

Like i said, its all down to personal preference.

Cheers for the discussion guys, just remember, on the internet, everyone has an opinion.