Co2 Cylinder Screw-down Valve: Your Worst Nightmare

[claymen]

Where does the certificate specifically say it is for a fire extinguisher only? I'll try and get a copy of the documentation (such a pain they aren't freely available online being its a standard and all...).

To restate it, is the bottle being certified to hold a specific material at a maximum working pressure or is it stating the intended use of the canister which would imply what is being used in it to some degree? Logic would dictate that the bottle is certified for a material/working pressure rather than certified for "homebrew" or "extinguisher"

If what you say is true then this business is technically committing an offense just not the sale of the bottle only the filling. I just can't see a cylinder testing business doing that for the sake of a few homebrew people. It's like asking a sparky to do a dodge job it puts his business at risk if something goes wrong.

 

[MHB]

Yes that is very specifically what the certificate says, this is a copy of an approval certificate that I found with a quick google.
View attachment 27307
In my experience with bureaucracy "Logic" has very little to do with anything, you or I might think it's perfectly reasonable that won't work as a defence in court.

That being the case, why would I or any other refiller take a huge risk for someone else's benefit?

MHB

 

[mje1980]

Claymen, MHB makes a good point, But if it works for you, by all means keep doing it, but don't argue with people who are doing:

A.) The right thing, legality wise

B.) The safe thing,

It has nothing to do with money for me. I think the idea of playing around with pressurised vessels is a bit dodgy for something that's in/near your house. But hey, that's just me.

 

[roger mellie]

Claymen, MHB makes a good point, But if it works for you, by all means keep doing it, but don't argue with people who are doing:

A.) The right thing, legality wise

B.) The safe thing,

It has nothing to do with money for me. I think the idea of playing around with pressurised vessels is a bit dodgy for something that's in/near your house. But hey, that's just me.

Thats a bit harsh MJE - Claymen brought a cylinder off a chap who tests cylinders for a living - i brought mine from the same dude - fully legit - fully legal - very safe - in fact he removes the stupid handle thing (talked about in another thread) and replaces with the proper regulator valve.

As for Marks finding in the AS code - i would have though that re-certification of a cylinder would be possible in this instance. As it was performed by a person who is no doubt licenced to do so - indeed its his job.

I work for BOC (sort of) - and they would have no issue filling my cylinder at Canning Vale (unofficially) - as it is in test. The fact that it used to be a fire extinguisher is irrelevant as it has all the tank markings it needs. That said - I would always take it back to the dude I brought it from.

RM

 

[claymen]

Claymen, MHB makes a good point, But if it works for you, by all means keep doing it, but don't argue with people who are doing:

A.) The right thing, legality wise

B.) The safe thing,

It has nothing to do with money for me. I think the idea of playing around with pressurised vessels is a bit dodgy for something that's in/near your house. But hey, that's just me.

You are implying that what I am doing may be unsafe and/or illegal. I didn't buy an extinguisher and get it modified I bought a tank from a legitimate cylinder testing place for the specific use of homebrew beer carbonation and dispensing. I'm just trying to wade through the misinformation and crap that gets plastered around about it. There seems to be a fair bit of grey area and to be honest I believe some people do exploit that fact. I'm not saying that MHB is I just want clear information and I am glad he has pointed us to the proper standards.

What I was going to bring up was that those certifications for use have an expiry. What happens when that certificate date expires and you get it restamped, will it be a new certificate based on it being a fire extinguisher or something else. And how is a filler supposed to know what its intended purpose is for? Like for example a person brings in a fire extinguisher to be refilled that has been stamped accordingly. So if the user tells the filler its for a fire extinguisher and its cert is for one then the fill is legal, but if they say its for something else then its illegal... also it doesn't make the bottle itself illegal only the act of filling it under false pretenses. Does it make it unsafe.. maybe but that's part of the grey area as well..

The more I read up on it the more confusing it seems to be. One more thing is that certification appears to be for the unit as a whole, as it details the specific requirements for it to be used as an extinguisher e.g. that it is a 5B:E CO2 extinguisher. That would imply that it's certified to hold a specific material and to be used as a legal extinguisher asuming all fittings are there as per the AS/NZS 1841.6:1997 code is adhered to.

*sigh*

 

[KGB]

^^^So you don't keg your beer or prime your bottles? :huh:

EDIT: In reply to mje1980's post.

 

[claymen]

To put it all simply, it needs to be a lot clearer, either the code or just the general information. Bureaucracy at its best

In any case I'm happy with what I got and it was bought for a specific purpose from a cylinder testing place for a price that is excellent.

If people want to do DIY things like modding the bottles themselves well.. that's a whole 'nother ball game and well that *may* be unsafe. It's the same as people cabling up their house with CAT cable. Technically illegal, doesn't mean its unsafe unless its a really piss poor job.

 

[cooperplace]

Hi everyone,

I didn't think I would spark such fascinating debate but it is great to hear all these viewpoints. To all the people concerned about safety: you're absolutely right, all this pressure in a bottle is scary.

One reason I keg is that years ago a bottle I was capping exploded, slicing an artery in my arm and I came very close to bleeding to death and spent some time in hospital. You wouldn't believe how fast blood can pump out of an artery, try as you might to staunch the flow. Of course I use my cylinders in a well-ventilated area. Of course I check for leaks, using water/detergent mixture. And I wouldn't dream of modifying the tank+valve assembly: I leave that to my friendly, licensed, experienced, fire extinguisher guy.

I thank those people who raise the important issue of legality of modifying an extinguisher and I will check the standards and ask my extinguisher guy his view.

The "tightarse" label is to an extent true, but as someone said, that could be said about all homebrewers.

And, just because an issue is complex, that doesn't mean I can't dabble in it, but I've got to be sensible and know my limits. After all -I'm not doing this by myself- I've got everyone in AussieHomeBrewer to help.

Peter

 

[cooperplace]

I have been doing some research on this issue also, and have had the thread measured on the neck of my 5kg fire extinguisher as being 3/4" BSP (parallel). The type 30 fittings are 3/4" tapered.


Here are some pics of the thread in the neck of the extinguisher


Crundle

Hi Crundle,

Many thanks for posting those excellent pics. Can I ask what brand is your extinguisher? It looks absolutely completely 100% identical to mine, especially the innards of the valve.

Mine is Chubb, and they told me that the thread is 3/4" NGS. 3/4 NGS and 3/4 BSP are almost identical in every respect, except that one of them has a 55 degree thread pitch and the other is 60, from memory. A female 3/4 BSP female will beautifully screw onto a 3/4 NGS male. I was convinced that my fittings are 3/4 BSP, but (see my earlier post) they're not. I sound a note of caution, make of this what you will.

Let me know if you want me to send you a copy of the relevant Australian standard (I hope I can do that legally!).

regards

Peter.

 

[frogman]

6 kg my keg on legs cylinder $299 to own

365 days per year, 10 years between retesting = 3650 days.

3650 days/$299 =12.20735........

Less than 13c per day... BLOW YOUR SELF UP FOR 13C...

Think about it.

DAMIEN

 

[cooperplace]

6 kg my keg on legs cylinder $299 to own

365 days per year, 10 years between retesting = 3650 days.

3650 days/$299 =12.20735........

Less than 13c per day... BLOW YOUR SELF UP FOR 13C...

Think about it.

DAMIEN

er, what is your point exactly?

 

[roger mellie]

6 kg my keg on legs cylinder $299 to own

365 days per year, 10 years between retesting = 3650 days.

3650 days/$299 =12.20735........

Less than 13c per day... BLOW YOUR SELF UP FOR 13C...

Think about it.

DAMIEN

I spent half of that on a 5KG Fire Extinguiser

You sure its 10 years between tests??

How much does a fill cost?

Mines 20 bucks

What was your point again?

RM

 

[Guest Lurker]

10 years? My whacky, zany, worksafe contravening, life risking, supposedly cowboy guy insists on inspecting my fire extinguisher and screw valve which he professionally put together with no thread mismatch every 5 years, and I have complete faith in him to keep me safe.

 

[roger mellie]

10 years? My whacky, zany, worksafe contravening, life risking, supposedly cowboy guy insists on inspecting my fire extinguisher and screw valve which he professionally put together with no thread mismatch every 5 years, and I have complete faith in him to keep me safe.

Simon - there should be a rule about Moderators being Facetious.

Best left to the Proletariat.

RM

 

[cooperplace]

10 years? My whacky, zany, worksafe contravening, life risking, supposedly cowboy guy insists on inspecting my fire extinguisher and screw valve which he professionally put together with no thread mismatch every 5 years, and I have complete faith in him to keep me safe.

Hi Guest lurker,

I would be very interested to know the configuration of your setup, ie, what sort of cylinder it is, and what valve (part no and brand?) is on it. Alternatively, the contact details (am I asking too much?) of the supplier.

Thanks

Peter

 

[Doogiechap]

Hi Guest lurker,

I would be very interested to know the configuration of your setup, ie, what sort of cylinder it is, and what valve (part no and brand?) is on it. Alternatively, the contact details (am I asking too much?) of the supplier.

Thanks

Peter

John from Eversafe.
Unit 1/ 29 Emerald Rd 6109 Maddington
0894933247
He has been extremely helpful to a number of brewers
Cheers
Doug
edit: added interweb linky.

 

[smollocks]

3650 days/$299 =12.20735........

Less than 13c per day... BLOW YOUR SELF UP FOR 13C...

Think about it

You should think about your maths a bit more there Damien.

What you've actually calculated is the number of days worth of gas per dollar, i.e. 12.2 days per dollar.

Perhaps what you intended was $299/3650 = $0.08 per day.

Personally I think a dollar figure per keg is more informative, but this is unique to each brewer.

 

[claymen]

6 kg my keg on legs cylinder $299 to own

365 days per year, 10 years between retesting = 3650 days.

3650 days/$299 =12.20735........

Less than 13c per day... BLOW YOUR SELF UP FOR 13C...

Think about it.

DAMIEN

I rang all the home brew places I could locally and could only find one that had the 6kg and they had no idea when they would have any in stock. The biggest most places could do was the 4.5kg and that was $300-350. Maybe the case is different over east.

In any case, I'm not about to blow myself up and I am tired of the insinuation that I will. Like many of the guys we bought our tanks from a cylinder testing place asking for a tank to use for homebrew. Sure doing the DIY mod yourself to a tank might be a bit risky but honestly some of you guys blow a lot of this WAY out of proportion.

 

[ozshots]

You should think about your maths a bit more there Damien.

What you've actually calculated is the number of days worth of gas per dollar, i.e. 12.2 days per dollar.

Perhaps what you intended was $299/3650 = $0.08 per day.

Exactly!

Better still, $15.000 boat over 10 years will "only" cost you $4 per day....

Now, try to convince you wife in this sort of math

 

[mje1980]

I rang all the home brew places I could locally and could only find one that had the 6kg and they had no idea when they would have any in stock. The biggest most places could do was the 4.5kg and that was $300-350. Maybe the case is different over east.

In any case, I'm not about to blow myself up and I am tired of the insinuation that I will. Like many of the guys we bought our tanks from a cylinder testing place asking for a tank to use for homebrew. Sure doing the DIY mod yourself to a tank might be a bit risky but honestly some of you guys blow a lot of this WAY out of proportion.

Fair point claymen. I was probably a bit blunt before, and i apologise for that. You are right in that in has been blown out pf proportion. I wouldn't use an extinguisher, but then again, i no chill, and we all know the dangers of that!!.

Cheers