Co2 Cylinder Options

[Chad]

...I'm very tempted to buy a new cylinder from Kegs on legs - just a shame it's supplied empty to Brisbane buyers...

I bought my 6.8kg MyKegOnLegs from the Home Brew Shop at Cleveland, full, for $350.

 

[domonsura]

I have one of my converted and filled fire ext bottles for sale, thought I'd offer it here for $100 first before putting it on Ebay instead.
PM me if interested

 

[domonsura]

bump...going to put it on tonight if no-one wants it..

 

[Andyd]

In Melbourne, some of us have been lucky enough to be getting out gas through Grain and Grape, at $17/year for a 9kg bottle. Unfortunately the deal with Air Liquide has stopped, and we're back up to $130 a year. *sigh*.

This led me to look into Supagas...

a 22kg bottle costs $11/month ($132 a year). Each fill is $47 delivered to your door next day. They also delivery LPG 9kg bottles for $25, which isn't bad. going on what Bunnings want for a refil these days!

AndyD

 

[royourboat]

sup guys,

new to home brewing (actually haven't started, tisk tisk.) and have acquired many parts for my home bar.

1 is a fire extinguisher, I'm willing to run with Industrial CO2 being 'comparatively healthier' then the cigarettes I may suck on whilst drinking from a fire extinguisher gassed (gased?) post mix keg.

Is there any need to remove the fire extinguisher handle and replace with a BOC like gas tap? or can I just drill a hole and pin it shut (on) and remove pin to shut off gas.

Anything else I should know about modifying a fire extinguisher for running commercial and post mix kegs?

 

[domonsura]

Hi Ro,
Not sure if you got the answers you were looking for, but...

* You will need a regulator, otherwise you will not be able to control your carbonation or dispensing pressures, so they will be governed by the pressure in the bottle. (You'll overcarbonate your beer, and it will come out of the tap like a rocket), and
* a fire ex bottle will need to have the dipstick removed from it's interior and be re-filled by the appropriate business before you can use it for your beer.

* I still have one fire ex' bottle that has had the above done to it, but it's the last one. $100, won't have any more after that one.
There are other options of course, but they run into a few more $$$ than that.

 

[Batz]

be it reliable or not but im told that the main difference between food grade co2 and industrial co2 is the fact that the bottles are cleaned before filling for the food grade type with what i dont know , but i have been told this also for oxygen for breathing as opposed to industrial use...

cheers...

When I worked for CIG,that was before the name change to BOC,industrial and food grade C02 was filled from the same tank,the C02 had to pass food grade standards there were no 'seconds'.
The bottles are inspected be it industrial or food grade but food grade bottles are not cleaned before filling.
Same goes for medical grade,same same,C02,02 all filled from the same tanks,same filling station,no bottle cleaning.


Batz

 

[Wortgames]

All due respect Batz, but just because YOUR mob filled both cylinders from the same tank doesn't mean everyone does - I don't think we can necessarily rely on 'industrial' and 'food grade' to be exactly the same stuff.

AFAIK, there is no obligation on anyone to ensure food-safe handling of 'industrial grade' CO2. It could come from cheaper manufacturing processes, it could be stored in tanks which handle other less desirable products, anything - ESPECIALLY if you are dealing with a supplier like a fire extinguisher filler, who is presumably not dealing in food grade gas at all and is just buying their CO2 from the cheapest supplier.

I don't know enough about how many CO2 producers there are in Australia, what level of purity they deal in, what other products they handle or the relative costs involved, but I would guess that you could happily use pretty shitty CO2 in a fire extinguisher.

There may be nothing in it, but it doesn't sit right with me to happily espouse consuming industrial-grade CO2. There has to be some level of risk involved, not to mention the possibility of undesirable flavours and aromas in cheap CO2.

 

[domonsura]

My understanding is that what Batz has said is completely correct.
BOC are one of the biggest gas industry suppliers in AUS/NZ, and supply gas to hospitals and food industry, all to international ISO standards.
The 'over the counter' information I have from someone who currently works for BOC and has done for decades (since back when it was CIG), is that there is no difference between the gases, but when I am there tomorrow, I will ask for some written information regarding what the ISO standards require regarding gas for different end uses, specifically CO2, and if there are actually any differences in bottling processes at all - and how these standards are applied in the gas industry in Australia/NZ.
Seems to me that this is an ongoing point of contention, and some 'official' information may stop the debate cold.
Despite the fact that many of us are using fire extinguishers and have been doing so for a while with no obvious ill effects, it will either allay fears, or identify a potential problem.
I do have a bit of trouble believing that with the liability laws in Australia the way they are, that any reputable business at all would perform the conversion process on a fire extinguisher bottle (which they do being fully aware of what the intended end use is) without being pretty sure that there would be no ill effects to the consumer, if only because the potential for being sued out of existence would be too great surely? But I could be wrong....I'll post up whatever info I can find on the subject tomorrow.
Not worth us all getting tied up in knots over is it....

 

[Batz]

All due respect Batz, but just because YOUR mob filled both cylinders from the same tank doesn't mean everyone does - I don't think we can necessarily rely on 'industrial' and 'food grade' to be exactly the same stuff.

AFAIK, there is no obligation on anyone to ensure food-safe handling of 'industrial grade' CO2. It could come from cheaper manufacturing processes, it could be stored in tanks which handle other less desirable products, anything - ESPECIALLY if you are dealing with a supplier like a fire extinguisher filler, who is presumably not dealing in food grade gas at all and is just buying their CO2 from the cheapest supplier.

I don't know enough about how many CO2 producers there are in Australia, what level of purity they deal in, what other products they handle or the relative costs involved, but I would guess that you could happily use pretty shitty CO2 in a fire extinguisher.

There may be nothing in it, but it doesn't sit right with me to happily espouse consuming industrial-grade CO2. There has to be some level of risk involved, not to mention the possibility of undesirable flavours and aromas in cheap CO2.

All C02 comes from Mt Gambier,all is delivered to either BOC or Liquid Air,all is of the same standard.
Still you buy food grade mate,that's how industrial gas is sold cheaper.
Oh the "mob" I worked for in Adelaide was BOC,largest gas "mob" in Australia


Batz

 

[Wortgames]

Hi Batz, I'm not trying to ridicule you or BOC.

Are you seriously telling me that a single plant in Mt Gambier is THE ONLY supplier of CO2 in Australia? So every gram of CO2 consumed anywhere on this continent has been trucked from country SA? Nobody else is producing / importing / supplying CO2 in any way, shape or form?! Is it written into law somewhere that no-one else can start producing cheap CO2 for fire extinguisher use?

I'm not arguing with the idea that BOC only deals in one grade of gas and sells it as various grades at various prices - what I am concerned about is the various end-of-the-line suppliers that brewers might end up dealing with, be they paintball, fire extinguisher or welder type outlets - where their gas has been purchased from, and what indignities it may have gone through before it is put in your bottle.

I just think it's a big call to advise newbies that it's all the same stuff and it doesn't matter where you get it from.

 

[Batz]

As far as I know yes it is all from the Mount
Lets just say I am talking BOC/C02 here,I've said this was my experience when I worked there many years ago.
It could be from anywhere now,yukky C02 who knows,buyer beware.


Batz

 

[paul]

Ive seen them filling the bottles at BOC. It all comes from the same tank.

 

[Screwtop]

Put BOC to the test and asked them what the difference was. The guy said the cylinder valve and thread is cleaned and sanitised before and after filling and sealed afterwards, the gas is the same.

 

[Wortgames]

OK, that's BOC taken care of <_<

Now let's do the same for every fire extinguisher filler and welding supplier shall we?

 

[redbeard]

was curious about the mt gambier link & found this :

"Carbon dioxide
Caroline 1 well, ~20 km SE of Mount Gambier, discovered CO2 in 1966, and has been
producing commercial liquid CO2 since 1968. The field is owned and operated by Air Liquide Australia. The raw gas is processed onsite, and requires only a minimum of processing to remove lower boiling point impurities such as methane. Minor hydrogen sulphide (<2 ppm) is removed by adsorption on zinc oxide. Small amounts of crude oil and water are also produced, which are discarded. The liquid CO2 is transported by road tanker to supply soft drink, firefighting and medical industry markets in Melbourne and Adelaide. In June 2002 the retail price of bulk liquid CO2 was ~$460/t. At this price, Caroline 1 ranks as the most productive well in South Australia (in terms of value of product) with ~$217 million of liquid CO2 being produced and sold since 1968. The national CO2 market appears to have expanded to absorb the increase in production from the new Boggy Creek CO2 field (Vic.). Further CO2 discoveries may also be commercially viable."

http://www.pir.sa.gov.au/pages/petrol/data...2_chapter_4.pdf

also has a pic of the co2 purification plant. doesnt look very big (!).

 

[stillscottish]

OK, that's BOC taken care of <_<

Now let's do the same for every fire extinguisher filler and welding supplier shall we?

What's your problem mate?


Anytime there's discussion about CO2 you get on your high horse ( it seems) about how fire extinguisher gas is responsible for all the ills of society. I'm using it and can't detect any smell or taste difference, hundreds of others are out there doing the same.

I'm sure if someone set up a poll about it you'd find that no-one really cares about it as long as they are getting a cheap, reliable source of gas.

I'd love to talk more but I'm off to my extinguisher driven fridge to pull another pint of Amarillo Ale.

Campbell
who's had too many to care

 

[Wortgames]

What's your problem mate?

Excuse me?

Anytime there's discussion about CO2 you get on your high horse ( it seems) about how fire extinguisher gas is responsible for all the ills of society.

Perhaps you could provide some links to my excessive high-horsing? I don't think I've made much mention of it at all. I have certainly never claimed that fire extinguisher gas is responsible for all the ills of society, I am well aware that all the ills of society are caused by bottling, pellet hops and sodium met.

I'm using it and can't detect any smell or taste difference, hundreds of others are out there doing the same.

And my Great Aunt Ethel smoked 80 fags a day and lived to a hundred. So there we have it, indisputable proof that smoking fags is good for you.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can debate the pros and cons of some infinitessimal detail of the brewing process for years on end, and then, when they run out of further facts or opinions, state 'well that's what I do and my beer is fine'. It's the lamest comeback in the book.

Are you really stating that YOUR industrial gas is identical to ALL industrial gas? The whole point, I would have thought, is that 'industrial' CO2 CAN be of variable quality. If ALL Co2 were ALWAYS perfectly good, food grade stuff then surely there would be no point in differentiating it? Here's a thought - maybe 'industrial grade' gas is sold cheaper, because in some markets it has to COMPETE with other, cheaper, less food-safe sources?

I'm sure if someone set up a poll about it you'd find that no-one really cares about it as long as they are getting a cheap, reliable source of gas.

Well I do - it strikes me as being something that still hasn't properly been investigated or answered. Everyone has repeated ad nauseam what BOC may or may not do, as if that somehow closes the subject. That's like saying what CUB do in the brewing process is some guarantee that every brewery in Australia does the same. I just don't buy it, and I'd like to discuss it with anyone who can offer anything a bit more concrete than 'what BOC do'.

This is a 'forum' after all.

I'd love to talk more but I'm off to my extinguisher driven fridge to pull another pint of Amarillo Ale.

Good for you.

 

[frogman]

Went out and bought myself a 6.8kg MY KEG ON LEGS cylinder yesterday.

$350 full

10 years before retesting =$35 per year rental.
=$0.6730 per week

$45 per refill. Gas last me about 6 months @ 1+ keg per week.
$45 / 26 weeks =$1.7307.

$0.6730 + $1.7307 = $2.4037.


$2.4037 per week is cheap enough for me.

And I have no need to worry about gas quality.


Looks pretty too. B)

 

[Linz]

Froggy,

I'd double check the Pressure Test date of 10 years.....

We(Chubb techs) were informed AS 1851.1(fire extinguisher cylinder P/T) was changed from 6 yearly P/T's to 5 yearly P/T's to come into line with industrial gas bottle pressure test cycles..

The old BBQ bottles are a 10 year cycle