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Chlorine Removal - Time Versus Temp?

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manticle

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Has anyone information on or a link to the temperature and time relationship between chlorine in water and its volatility as a gas?

I know boiling will remove chlorine (though I'm not sure how long it takes) and I know agitiating will assist (again no idea on time) and I know that simply standing overnight will remove most chlorine but how much and how long and what is the relationship between time and heat?

Basically trying to work out if heating strike water for single infusion is enough. If it is, is heating strike water for lower rest temps like acid rest or protein rest enough? How long does the water need to stand at y temperature to remove x ppm of chlorine?

Many thanks (just trying to nut out the last bits of this water chemistry article and can't find the info I'm looking for).
 

Wolfy

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I do not mean to derail your thread, but assuming you're thinking about a municipal water supply, is it chlorine that you need to remove or chloramine (which is harder to remove)?
 

manticle

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Chlorine.

I know chloramine can't be removed by heat.
 

MHB

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Quick look at a solubility table gives you the answer
solubility_cl2_water.png
Effectively insoluble at 100oC so just getting to a boil should kick out all of it.
To the best of my knowledge no one uses Chloramines to treat water in Australia, there might be a couple of exceptions but unless you know differently you can assume they have uses gaseous Chlorine or Hyperchloride.
Mark
 

np1962

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Quick look at a solubility table gives you the answer
View attachment 53748
Effectively insoluble at 100oC so just getting to a boil should kick out all of it.
To the best of my knowledge no one uses Chloramines to treat water in Australia, there might be a couple of exceptions but unless you know differently you can assume they have uses gaseous Chlorine or Hyperchloride.
Mark
Some SA country areas receive Chloaminated water.
"Chloramination (a combination of chlorine and ammonia)
is used by SA Water for disinfection in longer water pipelines
such as those in country areas, where it is longer lasting than
chlorine alone."
From This Report
As MHB has stated though no metro water supplies are treated in this way AFAIK.
Cheers
Nige
 

manticle

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@MHB,

Thanks for your reply.

I know for certainty that Melbourne water is treated by chlorine treatment only. Not sure about the rest of AU but you are probably correct.

However the article I'm trying to write needs to address other possibilities - it's being written mainly for BJCP study but it's also worth considering what might happen to your beer if you moved overseas for example..

Thanks for the graph. If I am reading it correctly, chlorine will solubilise in water around <20 degrees so once you start pushing above 20 deg, it starts to dissipate. The higher the temp, the more and the quicker it will dissipate so boiling water will essentially contain none.

The areas I'm most interested in are the areas between 40 and 70 degrees as this is typically where strike water might reach before being added to grain. Most single infusion brewers will dough in around 70-78 degrees* and I'm fairly confident that that will be hot enough to drive off most chlorine enough to make no difference to the finished product). However a step masher doughing in between 45 and 65* degrees (depending on rest and not an exhaustive range) - would they need to leave it to sit at that temp for much longer or is the concern a beesdick's worth of an ant's fart in Spring?

One final question Mark.

The article that I'm writing will hopefully be of benefit to people here as well as the BJCP study group and I want to make sure that I can present a simplified version of water/mash chemistry without including any fundamental errors or ignoring important information (hence the recent threads on this and zinc).

I'd ask this via PM but I believe you have shut yours off.

I have asked a few people to view the article at various points to check for any basic/fundamental errors and to suggest possible edits and revision. Dr Smurto was one of the people kind enough to look through and offer feedback. He made various suggestions and comments and suggested you might be an appropriate person to glance through as well and offer your perspective.

I know we don't have the best history online. I take that as granted; one day it may change but that is neither here nor there to me. However, I do respect your experience and knowledge (and always have done so) on most things brewing related so personality clash/whatever other clash aside, would you be willing to look through the document and offer any suggestions, error corrections etc, bearing in mind its intended purpose (simplification for the homebrewer without fundamental errors)?

If so, how can I send it to you?

If not, would you be kind enough to edit the wiki articles section with any sensible corrections when** I post it here on AHB, keeping in mind the intent and effort to make it as correct, current and logical as I possibly can? (ie. constructive editing)

**Which won't be for a while - bjcp study group first then revised to make it non melbourne, non bjcp specific and then to add in text referencing, then to post it on AHB.

Thanks

*system dependent - I lose 10 degrees on average to grain temp absorption but BIAB and other systems will vary so that's rough. Essentially the regions between acid rest and high sacch rest is where my interest lies.
 

MHB

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Its difficult to pin down exactly how much Chlorine is in tap water my local supplier says 0.0-1.5 mg/L by the time it reaches the tap.
Taking a look at the solubility table above, at 80oC the solubility is still over 3g/L, thats 3,000mg/L so in effect No, you cant be sure of ejecting the Cl2 until you reach boiling.
The other option being to add Metabisulphite, in theory about 1.34 mg/mg of Cl2, in practice about 3mg is usually used, if we take 1.5 mg/L as being at the higher end we would want to add 4.5mg/L or to 30 litres of strike water 135mg or 0.135g. A Campden tablet weighs about 0.5g or enough metabisulphite to de-chlorinate over 100L of tap water.
Im not the worlds biggest fan of the old stinky white powder but I think if you seriously wanted chlorine free I would bung half a Campden tablet in for a 25 L brew and use a whole one in double batches. As these doses there shouldnt be any problem using a small amount of Metabisulphite and arguably there are some benefits ask thirsty boy when he resurfaces.
MHB

My PM box isnt closed and my email address is in my sig, I did close PM for a while as too many people wanted to do business via PM, as a retailer I try very hard to keep me and my business separate and keep business related posts strictly in retail threads.
MHB
 

Feldon

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Has anyone information on or a link to the temperature and time relationship between chlorine in water and its volatility as a gas?

I know boiling will remove chlorine (though I'm not sure how long it takes) and I know agitiating will assist (again no idea on time) and I know that simply standing overnight will remove most chlorine but how much and how long and what is the relationship between time and heat?

Basically trying to work out if heating strike water for single infusion is enough. If it is, is heating strike water for lower rest temps like acid rest or protein rest enough? How long does the water need to stand at y temperature to remove x ppm of chlorine?

Many thanks (just trying to nut out the last bits of this water chemistry article and can't find the info I'm looking for).

This table is from a study looking at chlorine removal from water by aeration at various temperatures (and also by solar radiation and charcol filtration).

Chlorine_removal.jpg

According to the abstract of the paper:

Chlorine removal by aeration at various temperatures was not effective. Free chlorine
concentrations in sample #3 (S3) slightly decreased from 1.66 to 1.41 mg/L in open bottle
on a dark shelf (26C) and from 1.67 to 1.43 mg/L in open bottle in a refrigerator (5C)
for 3 days. Also, for chlorine removal in water by freezing (-20C) and melting (5C),
free chlorine concentration slightly decreased from 1.68 to 1.56 mg/L in open bottle for 3
days. In an additional analysis after 1 month, however, almost the same concentration of
free chlorine as that shown on the third day was detected (1.35 mg/L in open bottle on a
dark shelf), which indicates the long residual effect of chlorine.

Download the full paper (PDF) from a link at http://hendryutilities.com/
(the link is halfway down the page in left hand column)
The table (and others) is on p. 84.

Hope this helps.
 

Dazza88

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I am interested to know which areas in Australia use chloramine.
 

Dazza88

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I am interested to know which areas in Australia use chloramine.
 

bevdawg

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If chlorine buggers off at 100c, does this mean that making a brew with unfilted chlorine water (melbourne water) will have all chlorine elements taste removed when you do the boil? Or, by that stage are bad flavors already in the wort that cannot be removed?

I'm just wondering as I've started to filter my water before each brew, but if the chlorine is removed during the boil am I wasting my time?
 

bum

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I know for certainty that Melbourne water is treated by chlorine treatment only.
While this may be true (can't say either way), I am fairly confident that the pipes themselves may very well be (periodically) treated with chloramine. Been a little while since I've been out of the game so this may well have changed recently.
 

1974Alby

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If chlorine buggers off at 100c, does this mean that making a brew with unfilted chlorine water (melbourne water) will have all chlorine elements taste removed when you do the boil? Or, by that stage are bad flavors already in the wort that cannot be removed?

I'm just wondering as I've started to filter my water before each brew, but if the chlorine is removed during the boil am I wasting my time?

anyone have any insight on this question?? I too would love to know if there is any point in chlorine removal when the wort will be boiled anyway...or does the chlorine negatively impact the mashing process?
 

Whiteferret

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Chloramines can also be created by free chlorine coming into contact with organic substances in a pool so maybe using chlorinated water for your mash(high in organics) could produce chloramines.
 

redbeard

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I thought from my of reading Sydney Water webpages, that it mostly uses chloramine rather than chlorine ... hence carbon filter or campden tablets to counter it.
 

szopen

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Chloramines can also be created by free chlorine coming into contact with organic substances in a pool so maybe using chlorinated water for your mash(high in organics) could produce chloramines.

I belive that creation of chloramines resulting from reaction between free available chlorine (FAC) and grain (which will happen) is exactly what Manticle is trying to avoid.

City tap water should have a FAC content around 0.5ppm, it is frequently lower especially during warm season.

I have a bit of experience playing with water and tap water stored in tank overnight at temperature of 30C had no FAC left next morning.

So if removal of FAC is the aim, heating tap water to 40-45C should be enough to get rid of it.
 

szopen

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Forgot to add that if this is work done for study paper I would suggest getting your hands on some equipment for testing chlorine level and checking what happens as temperature raises.
 

manticle

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I missed all of the recent replies while my computer had a fit a few days ago.
Many thanks.

Interesting replies, unfortunately making things slightly more complex but worthy of digestion.
 
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