Chilling My Ag

[Bribie G]

Thats all fine and well but you should know by now you just dont get the same flavour and aroma from no chilling as you would chilling it down with a chiller to pitching temp straight away. No chilling extracts more bitterness and then to get the true aroma you either have to dry hop or cube hop 80% of the time.

Dont get my wrong i no chill all my homebrews i could not bring myself to waste that much water when victoria aint doing so well in the water stakes but also remember some people are old school and just love getting it down to pitching straight away locking in the hops.

Edit - OP i would go for a copper coil in an ice bath in an esky as a pre chiller just for the last half of the transfer. if your happy to no chill then thats great too...

Yes hop adjustments are definitely necessary but quite easy, once you get some experience. Buy a fresh wort kit, which is basically an industrially produced no chill cube and you'll find out yourself.

It is important to chill the hot wort quickly but not compulsory, as the no-chillers have proven without a doubt, as a previous poster noted
Now fast chilling can only get you down to some temp above your mains water temp, of course its more desirable if your tap water runs at 7C than 23C but its the rapid drop from near boiling that counts not the final temp.
You are far better, and far safer to pitch at your terminal temp even if it is 32C then transfer to your fermenting temperatures than you are to chill in the fridge then pitch, 32 ain't going to hurt your yeast (it will hurt your beer if you leave it that temp for 12 or more though).
I must say +500 for BribieG's excellent analogy re: no chill and canned peaches.
I personally prefer the peach picked, chilled and freighted to the canned variety, but I know of many who prefer canned peaches over chilled "fresh" peaches, to each his own.

K

Stretching the analogy somewhat B) I could just as easily argue that curries are better served fresh and not stored till next day, but as we all know the pork vindaloo is far better for storing overnight and heating up the next day :icon_drool2:

 

[woodmac66]

Woody, I put water in an old plastic garbage bin and add ice made in used plastic milk bottles, always have some on hand. Bash em on the shed floor to break up and cut the container in half and discard it. Drop the immersion chiller in and run tap water to the plate chiller via the immersion chiller. But don't use the iced water until you get the wort down as low as you can for best efficiency. Run the wort really slow via the chiller to the fermenter, adjust flow for pitching temp output.

Screwy

Thats a good idea looks like 2 projects now Herms and an immersion chiller.
Now I need to take some time off work to add to the Brewery.

 

[manticle]

Thats all fine and well but you should know by now you just dont get the same flavour and aroma from no chilling as you would chilling it down with a chiller to pitching temp straight away. No chilling extracts more bitterness and then to get the true aroma you either have to dry hop or cube hop 80% of the time.

Dont get my wrong i no chill all my homebrews i could not bring myself to waste that much water when victoria aint doing so well in the water stakes but also remember some people are old school and just love getting it down to pitching straight away locking in the hops.

Edit - OP i would go for a copper coil in an ice bath in an esky as a pre chiller just for the last half of the transfer. if your happy to no chill then thats great too...

I'm a newcomer to no chilling but if you have a simple hop schedule, how much does it matter?


For instance if I make an English bitter hopped with a single hop addition, or I change my 20 min. flavour addition for a 0 min or I make my 0 min a cube/dry hop won't I pretty much make up for everything?

Obviously a hopburst/apa/aipa typ thing that relies on regular frequent additions will need masses of tweaking but a lot of recipes can be adjusted. Considering most software is really only an estimate of actual IBU contributions and knowing your own system is paramount to repeatability, this effect should be minimal for most recipes.

Not stating by the way - just asking. As I said - I'm a newcomer to no-chill and I've read about this phenomenon before so just wanting to expand my understanding.

 

[dr K]

Stretching the analogy somewhat cool.gif I could just as easily argue that curries are better served fresh and not stored till next day, but as we all know the pork vindaloo is far better for storing overnight and heating up the next day icon_drool2.gif

well you can argue anything you like I guess, I might argue that a properly made curry, vindaloo, whatever is best at serving as it has been properly marinated, the inferior pork vindaloo tastes better the next day because of the benefits of overnight marination but we not talking about curries, you were talking about no-chill and using canned peaches as another example of the process, I merely agreed, noted that many prefer canned to fresh and added that I personally prefer fresh to canned. I was not stretching the analogy, merely agreeing.
back on topic, ..yeast shock, lets deal with the easy one first, dried yeast, well the manufacturers suggest pitching into warm water (higher than 32 anyway) in first place to rehyrate, now to liquid, if anyone is foolish enought to take liquid yeast out of the fridge at 3C and pitch it direct, even into to 19C wort, it will get a small initial shock, not good but not fatal, but then I do not know any brewers who do not attemperate their liquid yeasts, most just to room temp, so the temperature gradient is not that steep, the yeast will be fine, will kick off pretty quick as well. call it the far more angelic of two evils.

K

 

[Bribie G]

So far in comps I suppose I regularly get flogged by chillers and I regularly flog them in return - sort of a Ford vs Holden thing and not something I really think about on a week to week basis unless it comes up on the forum, which is infrequently.

Wort is bloody wort - in fact from a couple of mass exercises conducted at BABBs with worts produced at a microbrewery and distributed to numerous members who fermented at home I'd say that whatever differences between chill and no chill exist, they are largely eclipsed by such factors as fermentation temperature, yeasts, and treatment of the beer during and after fermentation (secondary or no secondary, cold crash, dry hopping, fining, filtering etc etc).

 

[woodmac66]

well you can argue anything you like I guess, I might argue that a properly made curry, vindaloo, whatever is best at serving as it has been properly marinated, the inferior pork vindaloo tastes better the next day because of the benefits of marination but we not talking about curries, you were talking about no-chill and using canned peaches as another example of the process, I merely agreed, noted that many prefer canned to fresh and added that I personally prefer fresh to canned. I was stretching the analogy, merely agreeing.
back on topic, ..yeast shock, lets deal with the easy one first, dried yeast, well the manufacturers suggest pitching into warm water (higher than 32 anyway) in first place to rehyrate, now to liquid, if anyone is foolish enought to take liquid yeast out of the fridge at 3C and pitch it direct, even into to 19C wort, it will get a small initial shock, not good but not fatal, but then I do not know any brewers who do not attemperate their liquid yeasts, most just to room temp, so the temperature gradient is not that steep, the yeast will be fine, will kick off pretty quick as well. call it the far more angelic of two evils.

K

I do attemperate my yeast I just thought it was better to start with Lquid at your fermentation temperature.
Naturally I want to getmy Wort down further anyway but handy to know.
The whole No Chill Vs Chill is like Fords and Holdens.
I have only been doing AG for a short time and must say sit on the chill side but like to keep my mind open to anything.
Good debate is healthy !!!
It's incredible how quickly you learn on these forums !

 

[hockadays]

I wouldn't be pitching yeast at 32degc especially with liquid strains. I put lagers in the fridge over night to get down to pitching temp and rack off the cold trub the next day and pitch and don't have any infection problems from it. As long as your fridge is clean inside and your sanitation is good your best result will come from pitching at the right temp.

 

[manticle]

Neither would I. I read something on the fermentis site about rehydrating dried wine yeast in the mid/high 30s but to my mind rehydration starter and pitching temp should all be around the same.

If someone has a great idea as to why that's incorrect or silly, I'd love to hear it.

 

[rude]

I got an infection once from a no chill cube Pitched a room temp starter 22c ( ale yeast ) into a fermenter full of no chill which was cold from being outside winter time

My sanitation is good I recon I shocked the yeast as it took too long to start

I have read on here that its better to pitch a colder starter than a warmer one with reference to the wort temp

I have only ever no chilled but I want to get a Blichman therminator plate chiller & use a pre chiller like Screwy to get it down to temp

Iteresting that some use their freezers to get it down with lag times not effecting their wort infection wise but I recon quick pitch is best.

 

[woodmac66]

I got an infection once from a no chill cube Pitched a room temp starter 22c ( ale yeast ) into a fermenter full of no chill which was cold from being outside winter time

My sanitation is good I recon I shocked the yeast as it took too long to start

I have read on here that its better to pitch a colder starter than a warmer one with reference to the wort temp

I have only ever no chilled but I want to get a Blichman therminator plate chiller & use a pre chiller like Screwy to get it down to temp

Iteresting that some use their freezers to get it down with lag times not effecting their wort infection wise but I recon quick pitch is best.

This is interesting, it would be good to see just what most of the brewers that are chilling are doing , and what temps they are pitching....I though the only option was to get down to temp to pitch but obviously people are pitching high... Then others like Skrewy go to a lot of effort to get the temp right!

From the topic discussion so far I am leaning toward the extra effort.
I looked at the Therminator too Rude :super: .... and it does look good but have held back as I see I need to spend my money on something else as it will stilll only get Wort down to the Temp of my water.
This may sound silly but has anyone considered an Aquarium chiller pre their plate CHiller as they are now pretty cheap now?

 

[Nick JD]

I did this a few weeks ago.

No chilled in the kettle (my usual way) to about 28C, transfered into (almost "sterile" with copious amounts of steam) fermenter, put fermenter into fridge at 2C for three days (poor overworked fridge!), pitched at 12C.

No infection and quite delicious. I'd have to do it again to see if chilling the wort first was responsible for anything ... I only did it because I wanted to use a specific yeast and had to wait a few days for it.

The part that made me most nervous was bringing it up to 12C from 2C after all that time. If I ever do this again I might pitch at about 5C.

 

[glaab]

I reckon 8-9 months of the yr tap water will get you down to 22 anyway. I like Screwys method. When I build my herms [if I can ever find a cheap 11-12L pot] I'll just have the coil coming out the top, then I can pull it out and put it in a bucket of ice water. I'm hoping a couple of 2L ice cream containers of ice with water in the bucket/ esky will do it, I can set it up during the boil to chill the water right down, maybe add some salt too. I should have it set up this week at least to the point where I can test the temp this'll cool the tap water down too so I'll post back here but I think Screwys already answered the question. I use 05 mostly and rehydrate at 25ish then pitch at 22 then into the fridge at 19 like Fermentis recommend. My tap water is 27 at the moment, I don't wanna pitch that warm. Interesting thread woody, I been trying to think of an easier way to do this for a while.

 

[drsmurto]

This is interesting, it would be good to see just what most of the brewers that are chilling are doing , and what temps they are pitching....I though the only option was to get down to temp to pitch but obviously people are pitching high... Then others like Skrewy go to a lot of effort to get the temp right!

From the topic discussion so far I am leaning toward the extra effort.
I looked at the Therminator too Rude :super: .... and it does look good but have held back as I see I need to spend my money on something else as it will stilll only get Wort down to the Temp of my water.
This may sound silly but has anyone considered an Aquarium chiller pre their plate CHiller as they are now pretty cheap now?

I chill using recirculating rainwater so no water wastage here.

Just cleaned up after a brewday and the wort is ~28C and sitting in the fermenting fridge (18C). I'll leave it overnight and pitch the next morning. Only need to do this in summer, the rest of the year i can get ales down to pitching temp straight out of the plate chiller.

 

[woodmac66]

I reckon 8-9 months of the yr tap water will get you down to 22 anyway. I like Screwys method. When I build my herms [if I can ever find a cheap 11-12L pot] I'll just have the coil coming out the top, then I can pull it out and put it in a bucket of ice water. I'm hoping a couple of 2L ice cream containers of ice with water in the bucket/ esky will do it, I can set it up during the boil to chill the water right down, maybe add some salt too. I should have it set up this week at least to the point where I can test the temp this'll cool the tap water down too so I'll post back here but I think Screwys already answered the question. I use 05 mostly and rehydrate at 25ish then pitch at 22 then into the fridge at 19 like Fermentis recommend. My tap water is 27 at the moment, I don't wanna pitch that warm. Interesting thread woody, I been trying to think of an easier way to do this for a while.

you are right Glaab it is only summer we have the issue.
Interesting to see how you go with your setup ...let me know how you go .
Smurto you are not far from me and obviously have the same issue and do wjhat I have been doing leaving in the fermentation fridge to get down the last few degrees.

Just finished brewing hey .... can I ask if it was something for the Tanunda show??


Woody

 

[drsmurto]

you are right Glaab it is only summer we have the issue.
Interesting to see how you go with your setup ...let me know how you go .
Smurto you are not far from me and obviously have the same issue and do wjhat I have been doing leaving in the fermentation fridge to get down the last few degrees.

Just finished brewing hey .... can I ask if it was something for the Tanunda show??


Woody

Pitched the yeast a few hours ago now after the fermenting fridge got it down to 24C.

It was a golden ale with rye instead of wheat and galaxy instead of amarillo and its for me, not the show! :chug:

Not sure i will enter anything, will probably just put my hand up for judging again.

 

[kieran]

the way i see it, a plate chiller costs you money once. I use grey water (rain water + driveway & yard pit runoff) to cool my wort via plate chiller, it comes from a tap in my yard, and the waste hot water recirculates back into my 20,000L tank. So I'm lucky enough to use no tap water for my chilling. the other difference i guess, is that I don't like chill haze and prefer to knock protein out of solution by rapid cooling, something that won't happen with no chill (some will drop out, but not the same amount). I know this from my work in a lab, many proteins fails to precipitate to sufficiently high levels when not chilled rapidly.. that's tested with lab grade gear. Granted, some will, but many wont.

 

[bowie in space]

Hi Bowie , what was your Wort temp when you pitched I wouldn't have thought that would have been the issue.
I usually pitch @ 19 with 04 or o5 andits usually going nuts by morning 10-12 hours.
May have just been some shitty yeast
Only thing i make sure of is the yeast is the same temp as the Wort.


Woody

Woody, the temp is about 16C in my fridge, so perhaps a little too cold. I like to set my probe a couple of degrees less than required because of the heat generated by the yeast during fermentation.

I'm pitching today and will take my cube out of the fridge and sit at ambient for an hour of two before i throw it in the fermenter. See if it fires quickly that way.

Bowie

 

[schooey]

My $0.02...

I used to use an immersion chiller... I found it the most innefficient methhod of chilling wort, for me anyway. Unlessyou had a pool or a fairly sizable rain water tank to source the water from an recirculate back to, this is a great way to waste a lot of water. I believe no-chill has it's place, but I've never had much with clarity in no chilled pale beers. Maybe that's a flaw in my process though, so I'm not condemning it.

My current method is very similar to Screwy. I use a plate chiller with the cooling water running through a 12m coil of copper in an esky full of ice. My tap water is ~21C, and after the chill coil comes through somewhere between 7~10C depending on the flow. I only run my wort through once though, and it usually comes down to around ~20C, using a very slow flow on the wort outlet line. The whole process is done in around 20 minutes, versus 60 mins plus with the immersion chiller to get to that temp.

I'm not really a fan of leaving un-innoculated wort in the fridge for any length of time to cool. The sooner the yeast is in it the better for mine. So easy for a wild yeast to get a foothold...

 

[glaab]

My $0.02...

I'm not really a fan of leaving un-innoculated wort in the fridge for any length of time to cool. The sooner the yeast is in it the better for mine. So easy for a wild yeast to get a foothold...

that's what I was thinking but I expect Herr Doktor would've mentioned if he'd had any problems.
It certainly sounds like the easy way out for me. Maybe I could set the fridgem8 for 2C and see
how qiuck I can get it from 27ish down to 22 . A blast of C02 in there might help fend off any nasties getting a foothold but would it hinder the us05 getting started or stress it

 

[technocat]

Well I suppose living in the deep south has its advantages. Our tank water is fairly stable 18-20C most of summer. Nights chill down to around 11-14C so ambient in workshop is around 18-20 with both doors open and a breeze blowing through. I can drop temps from just below 100C in boiler to around 22-24C by slowing output from pump through 15metres of 10mm pipe in counterflow chiller pictured below, using fast flow of cold water through cylinder. A 70mm PVC pipe forms a core inside the coil to force the water out through the coil to enhance cooling and prevent hot water collecting around the coil. Seems to work well enough although to get down to lager temps would obviously require some form of refrigeration even in winter down here.

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