Cellamix 30 Beer Gas Mix - Brisbane Suppliers

[beleza.jake]

Hello,

Does anyone know where gas bottles can be refilled with Beer Gas Mix (70/30) in Brisbane?

Whilst there appear to be a few suppliers who offer rental services (i.e. BOC, Star Gas, El Gas, Jengas, and Supagas), the preference would be to refill the bottle/s that I already own.

Jengas will deliver you a D Size bottle filled with Beer Gas Mix (70/30) for $330 (incl. GST) and $110 (incl. GST) for refills. However, I would prefer not to need to purchase another bottle. Whilst a stretch beyond the budget, it would be better than committing to a rental agreement.

The D Size bottle should have a capacity of 6kg of CO2 (100%) or 1.8kg CO2 (30%). Based on the assumption of 6g/L for dispensing, this means that a D Size cylinder would dispense 1,000 litres (pre-carbonated at 2.65 volumes CO2) at 100% CO2; and, 300 litres at 30% CO2. I have not accounted for the dispensing pressure of the nitrogen, as I understand that it is rather negligible – 72x less soluble than CO2 (Brewers Asociation, 2020).

Based on that [very] rough calculation, it seems that it will cost about $20.00 in Cellamix 30 to dispense a 49.5L keg of Guinness.

Does anyone have any other suggestions about where to refill a gas bottle with Beer Gas Mix (70/30) in Brisbane?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,

Jake

 

[MHB]

Your assumptions about the amount of CO2 the bottle will hold are way off.

6kg is liquid CO2, blended gasses can’t be pressurised high enough for the CO2 to turn into a liquid. If they are then your mixture goes out the window. Pure CO2 is at around 5mPa (temperature dependant), that’s enough pressure to keep the CO2 liquid.
Mixed gasses are packaged at lower pressure (<5mPa) so the CO2 won’t turn into a liquid. Pure nitrogen is packaged at ~20mPa. No matter how you cut it, blended gasses are going to be expensive compared to using CO2.

Remember that if you are dispensing Guinness, it is arriving pre carbonated, you are only pushing it out, if N2 is 1/72 as soluble very little would be going into solution so it’s fair to say it has more rather than less "dispensing pressure". You would get a much better answer using P1V1 and working on the volumes and pressures in the bottle/keg system than in taking a wild arsed stab at the mass of liquid CO2 in a D sized bottle.

Personally having set up a mixed gas system and tried it; I wouldn’t. I think N2 guts beer and really suppresses most of the aromas, especially hop aroma, its expensive, requires special taps, its slow to get the beer conditioned (try 2 weeks at 150-200kPa) just to get the right amount of N2 into solution...
Just set up a tap designed to run at low pressure (short large bore lines, sub reg...) and run your big stouts at very low pressures. Will be cheaper and easier and I suspect your beer will taste and smell better - you won’t get the magic bubbles, but to my mind that’s about all you will miss out on.
Mark

 

[beleza.jake]

Your assumptions about the amount of CO2 the bottle will hold are way off.

6kg is liquid CO2, blended gasses can’t be pressurised high enough for the CO2 to turn into a liquid. If they are then your mixture goes out the window. Pure CO2 is at around 5mPa (temperature dependant), that’s enough pressure to keep the CO2 liquid.
Mixed gasses are packaged at lower pressure (<5mPa) so the CO2 won’t turn into a liquid. Pure nitrogen is packaged at ~20mPa. No matter how you cut it, blended gasses are going to be expensive compared to using CO2.

Remember that if you are dispensing Guinness, it is arriving pre carbonated, you are only pushing it out, if N2 is 1/72 as soluble very little would be going into solution so it’s fair to say it has more rather than less "dispensing pressure". You would get a much better answer using P1V1 and working on the volumes and pressures in the bottle/keg system than in taking a wild arsed stab at the mass of liquid CO2 in a D sized bottle.

Personally having set up a mixed gas system and tried it; I wouldn’t. I think N2 guts beer and really suppresses most of the aromas, especially hop aroma, its expensive, requires special taps, its slow to get the beer conditioned (try 2 weeks at 150-200kPa) just to get the right amount of N2 into solution...
Just set up a tap designed to run at low pressure (short large bore lines, sub reg...) and run your big stouts at very low pressures. Will be cheaper and easier and I suspect your beer will taste and smell better - you won’t get the magic bubbles, but to my mind that’s about all you will miss out on.
Mark

Hey Mark,

Thanks for taking the time to reply, and for the corrections on the mass of liquid CO2 in the bottle, and the dispensing pressure of the N2.

I will do my research into Boyle's Law.

What would be your estimation on the volume of beer that could be dispensed with a D Size bottle of Cellamix 30? The assumptions are:
Beer temperature of 1-2°C; at sea level; 1.8m beer line at 4mm ID; and, one metre of height from tap to keg.

What do you mean by a short-large bore line and sub reg?

I understand your point about the suppression of the hop aromas. However, the demand for this gas comes primarily from the Irish and Brazilian communities who want a silky head on their schooners – they are less concerned about the hop aromas.

Thanks for your help mate.

Cheers,

Jake

 

[MHB]

Are you asking about dispensing already conditioned (commercial) beer or starting flat, carbing then dispensing, very different answers.


Long and narrow (4-5mm) lines require higher pressure to pump the beer through at a sensible flow rate than say a short fat (6-10mm), at the temperatures you are talking about (1-2oC) line, the amount of dissolved gas is dependent on temperature and pressure (time to).
To get the soft silky mouth feel of a classic UL cask ale, you want to be well under 4g/L of dissolved CO2.
Have a look at the section on carbonation in Braukaiser for the equation and the tables.
To get say 3.5g/L at 2oC you only need something like 15kPa. Lots of regulators aren’t very stable or accurate that low.

There is another way to manage the beer temperature and pressure equation that is to use beverage pumps, means you can set the pressure to get the target amount of fizz, but it can be pumped down the lines at regular flow rates. Have a chat with Lancer or Andale about setting that type of thing up.

The combined gas formula might be more use P1*V1/T1 = P2*V2/T2, just remember to work in Kelvin (oK)
Mark

 

[duncbrewer]

Not sure about the 2.65 CO2 volumes at 100% CO2 that would be very Carby for a stout as mentioned above, if using beer gas and you carbed using that I think you get 30% of 2.65 which will be less than 1 vol of CO2.

Best if you can have the keg carbed with CO2 to the volume you want ( ie if you can pressure ferment you save CO2) then put it on Nitro mix and you will use less gas.
Having just been setting my Nitro system up over the last few weeks and still learning if you have too much CO2 ( I put my previous CO2 stout on Nitro) you get a lot of foam.

Mine is now set at 30psi and a mix of 75% Nitrogen and 25% CO2 which means about 7.5 psi of CO2 and this gives me about 1.8 vols of CO2 at 8 celsius and it pours fine.