"cara" And 'crystal' Malts Explanations?

[Mantis]

I have just been adding my cara/crystal malts to the start of the mash. Is this wrong.
Beer tastes like mothers milk anyway so I guess for me it doesnt matter
Cheers
:beerbang:

 

[buttersd70]

each malt variety should be mashed seperately in it's own little pot.... h34r:

:lol:

 

[Fourstar]

I have just been adding my cara/crystal malts to the start of the mash. Is this wrong.
Beer tastes like mothers milk anyway so I guess for me it doesnt matter
Cheers

Not at all, if anything you are not doing yourself justice adding any malts late in the mash IMO (unless you are adding them for colour or they are ground to flour). Of you are adding for colour.. go late, if you are wanting flavour but afraid of overpowering, cut back your amounts as thats essentially what you are doing adding it late in the mash.. cutting back on the extraction. you are really just wasting the malt otherwise

 

[Kai]

Where is jovial monk when you need him?

Crystal malt is de invention of de debbil. DE DEBBIL.

Hmm, where's brad?

 

[Mantis]

each malt variety should be mashed seperately in it's own little pot.... h34r:

:lol:

Can I get you around to STIR all those little pots Butters h34r:

Hubble Bubble toil and trouble

 

[reviled]

I'm pretty sure this is not right. It is a crystal malt. Or at least Weyermann put it in the Caramel malt section of their product details. :lol:

I swear its not :blink: I know that the name and everything suggests it is, but if you look at the grain its not crystalised like the caramunich/carared etc...

And it seems to me very similair to english Amber malt, I still get a big biscuity taste off of it like I do with Amber...

Im sure ive read info that backs it up somewhere on the interweb :unsure:

 

[Fourstar]

I swear its not I know that the name and everything suggests it is, but if you look at the grain its not crystalised like the caramunich/carared etc...
And it seems to me very similair to english Amber malt, I still get a big biscuity taste off of it like I do with Amber...

Im sure ive read info that backs it up somewhere on the interweb

AFAIK the name cara 'amber' is in relation to the SRM/husk colour of the crystal malt. Weyermanns answer to Amber malt is Melanoiden. The biscuit taste you get may be related to the husk flavours from stewing/kilning.

 

[warrenlw63]

Not at all, if anything you are not doing yourself justice adding any malts late in the mash IMO (unless you are adding them for colour or they are ground to flour). Of you are adding for colour.. go late, if you are wanting flavour but afraid of overpowering, cut back your amounts as thats essentially what you are doing adding it late in the mash.. cutting back on the extraction. you are really just wasting the malt otherwise

I've added them both early and late and I don't find that much difference at all. Crystal and roasted malts give up whatever they have in a short hot water steep. Why should it matter where you add them? That's just unfounded bullshit.

Fourstar for you is this theorising or have you tried it both ways?

Warren -

 

[muckanic]

Crystal and roasted malts give up whatever they have in a short hot water steep. Why should it matter where you add them?

Well, roasted malts contain a surprising amount of starch (about 80% of base malt IIRC) and so it is fairly wasteful not to mash them if possible. I also find that releases more coffee notes, but I tend to agree with you when it comes to the crystals. One wildcard is whether you believe in mash oxidation effects or not.

 

[Fourstar]

I've added them both early and late and I don't find that much difference at all. Crystal and roasted malts give up whatever they have in a short hot water steep. Why should it matter where you add them? That's just unfounded bullshit.
Fourstar for you is this theorising or have you tried it both ways?
Warren -

Nothing but unfounded theorising with some legitimate conclusions still to be proven by practice. The idea seems like simple science to me. The longer you steep something the more extraction you get. All you have is a crystalised sugar or charred malt/starch in a husk. Do it yourself, boil a cup of water then drop a tsp of sugar in. It takes forever to dissolve or it doesnt fuly dissolve until you agitate it. Im assuming the same thing goes for crystal/roast malt when added to your tun late @ standard crush.

To counter this you would then grind it uber fine for a quick full extraction or grind it normally for a lower short extraction when adding it late. Continnual agitation would yield even more extraction until you hit the upper limit. By going with the standard crush by adding late you MAY be leaving residual malt behind in the grain. Again, all theorising.

Thinking about it more, i can see where your ideas are stemming from and it may yield full extraction as you are exposing it to a 1hr~ sparge time and the possibility of less astringency due to low tannin extraction (although i'd point this more to mash pH and or salt additions over a steep time). The other thing is you are also lacking the agitation you get from the mash period too to knock these malt/starch out of the grain.

As i said, its all theorising and as you put it "unfounded bullshit." But then again, is there any evidence to suggest that dark beers are smoother on the palate when addding dark malts late? Is it because of less husk astringency getting into the kettle from the dark malts or is it because your extraction of roast characteristics are less?

Thus, completing a full circle bringing me back to my point of adding less roast malts in the mash to balance that idea out.

 

[MHB]

There is a lot of difference between UK Amber and CaraAmber, CaraAmber being part of the crystal malt family.

The other important malt mentioned above is Melanoidin, or Brumalt as it was once called, I think referring to it as a German version of Amber would be extremely misleading, Braumalt is unique among its other uses it can be a wonderful aroma builder in darker beers where the idea that it could in some way mimic the results of decoction brewing remains a complete misery to me.

The following is a lift from "Brewing Science and Practice" it might help.

MHB

2.2.6 Special malts

The malts already described are all `finished' on kilns. However, there is a group of malts

which are finished in roasting drums (Bemment, 1985; Briggs, 1998; Gretenhart, 1997;

Maule, 1998; Narziss, 1976). All these special malts are used as small proportions of

grists to give particular colours, flavours and aromas (i.e., to impart characters) to beers.

They can be considered in two groups; those that are prepared by a simple heating

process, such as amber, diamber, brown, chocolate and black malts (and, by tradition in

the UK, roasted barley), and crystal and caramel malts in which the wet malts are

"stewed" so that the endosperm contents are liquefied before they are dried and cooked. In

each group a wide range of colours occurs. As the colour ranges are continuous and as the

qualities of the starting materials can be varied as, to some extent, can the roasting

regimes, it follows that the number of malts that might be made is unlimited. The more

usual types and divisions are described here, but intermediate types can be made and

sometimes are. Because these malts are required primarily for the characters and colours

that they provide, extract and colour are the analyses which, together with moisture

content, are usually specified. Sometimes coloured malts are made from wheat or other

cereals but only the barley malts are in common use. Unlike `white' malts, coloured malts

should be used as fresh as possible, storage time being minimized, to retain their aromas.

During their preparation the heating is so intense that no enzymes survive. As the colour

increases in a series of malts so the malt extracts decline slightly as the extra colour is

generated by more extreme or more prolonged heating. For example, in a series of

German caramel malts the extracts and colours were: Carapils, E 78%, colour,

2-5; Carahell, E 77%, colour 20-25o EBC; Caramuinch, E 76%, colour

50-300 EBC. As the colour increases so the wort pH values tend to decrease and the

Kolbach indices decline.



Amber malts are prepared by roasting pale ale or mild malts or, after drying, well

modified green malts. Heating programmes begin at about 48 ^oC (118.4 oF) and rise to

about 170 oC (338 oF). The `normal' colour range varies, but is usually 40-85 EBC.

Moisture contents are 3.5% or less. Extracts vary between 270 and 285 lo/kg. These malts

are valued for giving characteristic dry palates and baked or biscuit-like flavours to

golden-coloured ales. Diamber malts are probably not made now, but modern brown

malts are similar to amber malts prepared at higher temperatures. Such malts may have

extracts of 260-280 lo/kg and colours of 90-150 EBC. Chocolate and black malts and

roasted barley are also prepared in roasting cylinders but, relative to amber and brown

malts, the heating is much more severe and there is a risk that the grain may catch fire.

The process must be regulated so that no charring occurs and that when cut the grains are

evenly coloured and have a floury texture, with no glassiness, and have the correct colour

throughout. Well-modified green malt (TN 1.5-1.7%) is carefully dried and dressed. The

material is loaded into a roasting cylinder and the temperature is increased from about

75 oC (167 oF) to 175 oC (347 oF) and then more slowly to 215 oC (419 oF) for chocolate

malts and to 225 oC (437 oF) for black malts. During roasting, unpleasant fumes are

released and these must be eliminated by scrubbers or after-burners. Roasted barley is

finished at a higher temperature, 230 oC (446 oF). Towards the end of roasting, when the

heaters are switched off, the temperature of the load continues to rise as heat is generated

in the grain. At this stage the operator checks colour every 2-3 min. and at the correct

moment quenches the load with a spray of water.

Roasted barleys usually have colours in the range 1200-1500 EBC. These are used in

making some stouts and impart `sharp', `dry', `acidic' or `burnt' notes to the product. In

contrast to roasted malts roasted barley gives no hint of sweetness. The roasted grains

should be reddish-black, shiny and swollen and a proportion will be split. Extracts are

HWE, 260-275 lo/kg, and moisture contents will be less than 2%. Pale chocolate malts

will have colours of 500-600 EBC, and the more usual chocolate malts

900-1100 EBC. Black malts have colours of 1200-1400 EBC. All have moisture

contents of 2% or less and extracts of 255-275 lo/kg. Flavour descriptions of these

materials are not satisfactory, but they include `dry', `burnt', `acid' and `astringent' but

when chewed they have a residual sweetness which is distinct from the flavour of roast

barley. The hot water extracts of chocolate and roasted malts and roasted barley are

determined on finely ground samples mashed with boiling water at 100 oC (212 oF) in the

IOB method, so enzymolysis is not involved.

Crystal and caramel malts are unique in that during their preparation the endosperm

contents are deliberately mashed, stewed and liquefied and, when cut, the finished malts

should be hard and all the grains should be glassy or `crystalline' in appearance. These

malts are prepared in a wide range of colours, some of which are named. They impart rich

and delicious and other characteristic flavours and they give body to beers and are

believed to improve beer stability. Sound barley, sometimes with a high nitrogen content

of 1.7-2.0%, is malted. When it is well modified either the green malt is taken to a

roasting drum directly or, less economically, it is lightly kiln dried. The green malt, or the

re-wetted, kilned malt is warmed and held moist at a temperature of 60-75 oC

(140-167 oF) until the contents of the grains are liquefied and the liquid contents can be

squeezed out. The temperature is then increased and the grain is ventilated with hot air so

that both cooking and drying occur. The liquefaction step ensures that starch, and

possibly the endosperm cell-walls, are degraded and sugars and other soluble materials

accumulate. Thus on heating and drying and depending on the exact conditions a

concentrated sugar solution is produced together with various amounts of melanoidins

and flavour and aroma substances. The finished product is rapidly cooled, and the contents
solidify to a sugary, solid mass. Moisture contents are 3-7.5% and extracts are 260-285 lo/kg; 76-80%.
Preferred colour ranges are about 20, 120-140 and 300-500 EBC. While the palest crystal malts are sweet,
the darker malts have more complex flavours with caramel-, toffee-, malty-,

aromatic-, honey-like and luscious characters becoming more apparent until in the

darkest products harsher, burnt flavours appear. These products are variously called

caramel or crystal malts. It has been shown that the flavour spectra can usefully be varied

(Chandra et al., 1999).

 

[muckanic]

Thinking about it more, i can see where your ideas are stemming from and it may yield full extraction as you are exposing it to a 1hr~ sparge time and the possibility of less astringency due to low tannin extraction (although i'd point this more to mash pH and or salt additions over a steep time).

Extraction time definitely affects tannins, even if the water chemistry is right. Try an overnight mash some time - the initial runnings are fairly normal, but then the pH wants to climb sharply with further sparging of untreated water. OTOH, neither crystal nor roasted grains necessarily contain any more tannin than the base malt. The source of their astringency is from the kilning, and it is not clear that that particular astringency depends on extraction time. An analogy is with brewed tea and coffee. Old tea is tannic whereas old coffee, although it may be slightly harsher, is even more objectionable because of the stale, oxidised flavour.