Camra Vs Brewdog

[brett mccluskey]

More beer gossip from the UK :chug: http://www.brewdog.com/blog-article/camra-...ewdogs-gbbf-bar

 

[Aus_Rider_22]

from CAMRA's site.....

About Us

CAMRA campaigns for real ale, real pubs and consumer rights. We are an independent, voluntary organisation with over 100,000 members and have been described as the most successful consumer group in Europe. CAMRA promotes good-quality real ale and pubs, as well as acting as the consumer's champion in relation to the UK and European beer and drinks industry. We aim to:

Protect and improve consumer rights
Promote quality, choice and value for money
Support the public house as a focus of community life
Campaign for greater appreciation of traditional beers, ciders and perries as part of our national heritage and culture
Seek improvements in all licensed premises and throughout the brewing industry


mmmm pretty hypocritical if you force your beer stalls to serve from cask and not keg. If what Brewdog say is spot on, then that's really poor form from that camra group.

Note: I don't know the background between these two entities and haven't heard camra's side of it, just speculating from what the BD guys have put up!

 

[felten]

Sometimes I really feel that diehard CAMRA types aren't too far removed from Islamic fundamentalists - they are fanatically obsessed, wear strange beards, and are generally boring.

^ too true.

 

[Hatchy]

I'm willing to bet $100 that the CAMRA types drink more beer.

 

[Bribie G]

As one of the early members of CAMRA from the 1970s and having keenly followed them over the decades, I can't understand for the life of me why CAMRA would have signed them up in the first place, as they represent Real Ale, i.e. cask or bottle conditioned - and are even agin' cask breathers, let alone pressurised keg beers. Maybe some CAMRA official got talked into it whilst pissed or something and they desperately wanted to get out of the deal.

Sure there are some exciting new kegged beers around in the UK nowadays - generally but not always of the American Persuasion - maybe the likes of Brewdog should start their own alternative "Great CRAFT brew festival" open to all, which would attack the UK "lager" culture from two directions, sort of a pincer movement.

 

[lukiep8]

I complained about CAMRA on beeradvocate in regards to this. Someone (possibly involved with CAMRA) said that US breweries can send cask beer to the UK, so why can't brewdog?

I didn't reply, but I thought: Why should they have to?

CAMRA are so far behind the times. I can understand why they would want the traditional styles of England poured under cask conditions, but new world styles, it makes NO SENSE! CAMRA are old fashioned, and have to stop being fascists.

 

[bconnery]

Reading the comments on the article CAMRA appears to be claiming that Brewdog didn't pay their bill or meet the terms of the contract, while Brewdog are saying it is all around the cask issue.
Knowing Brewdog's history with marketing there is a part of me that believes this could all be a stunt when they had a disagreement about what beers had to go or something.
On the other hand, knowing Camra it could all be sticking their heads in the sand and not acknowledging that although real ale is fantastic there are lots of other good beers out there.
To me CAMRA appears to be getting too stuck on the real ale part, and forgetting some of the bits as quoted above "acting as the consumer's champion in relation to the UK and European beer and drinks industry. We aim to:

Protect and improve consumer rights
Promote quality, choice and value for money"

 

[ashley_leask]

I'm all for preserving beer history, and if they want to campaign for traditional British styles to be served from cask and hand pump then fine, but why should continental or American styles have to be served that way for the brewer to participate in a British Beer (not Real Ale) Festival.

They seem like the Beer Taliban.

 

[Bribie G]

On reflection, I suppose the Great British BEER festival could be organised so that the core is traditional cask ale, and then a couple of guest wings running off the main area such as UK, Euro and USA "craft" and even traditional beers like Weihenstephan etc. After all it's a once a year event and shouldn't interfere with CAMRA's core activities during the rest of the year, and might even give real ale producers a bit of a nudge to diversify some of their styles.

Even Camra's "Whats Brewing" magazine has a dig at some rather ordinary beers such as Lees of Manchester who put out a range of 3-4% ABV beers, and seem to be stuck in some Coronation Street Timewarp.

It would also be neat, IMHO, to feature some historical examples that brewers may wish to recreate. For example the significant North Country Breweries at Hull, until the 1980s, used to filter every drop of their beer starting from around 1928 and served it on handpump from bright tanks under a CO2 blanket. Shock horror pitchforks and flaming torches, but a skinfull o Hull was a favourite part of my visits to Scarborough etc, it was a very nice beer indeed (and I was a CAMRA member by then). Also lager brewing has had a long history in the UK - read "Shut up about Barclay Perkins" blog.... Allsops, the Wrexham Lager Co etc were well into lagers by the time we were Federating here.

Anyway I don't run CAMRA.

 

[MHB]

Im far from being in total agreement with all of CAMRAs decisions, but its their festival they organise it to promote Traditional Cask Ale they are an historical preservation society. CAMRA doesnt exist to support Craft Brewing its Raison d'tre is in fact almost the exact opposite of the aims and goals of the craft brewing movement.
Im sure that BrewDog and lots of other craft brewers would like the exposure they would get at the GBBF, it is one of the truly great beer festivals, I can also see how CAMRA might consider that the presence of new craft beers might distract (detract?) from their core message.
One side of the argument might see it as BrewDog riding on CAMRAs coat-tails, trying to get exposure for their beer at the expense of Traditional Ale and taking advantage of the decades of hard work put in by the hundreds of volunteers that have made CAMRA one of the Britons most influential consumer organisations.
BrewBog no doubt see their presence differently, frankly I can see a lot of value in both sides arguments, but its CAMRAs event, their game, their rules. Shame the non mainstream brewers cant get together more, mind you it might be a bit like turning up at a Harley show and wanting to set up a Jap bike stand could get very entertaining.
MHB

 

[Tim]

^ too true.

That picture with Osama and the weird beard is from one of my blogs. It sure ruffled up a few feathers!

CAMRA have lost the plot and don't know how to deal with Craft Keg, or Proper Real keg as it's also known. The CAMRA President, Colin Valentine gave a scathing tirade regarding craft beer at the CAMRA AGM. CAMRA are more interested in maintaining relevance these days than supporting good beer.

 

[vykuza]

Though this seems all terribly remote to me, not having a vested interest in either organisation, my armchair (deskchair?) pondering is this.

CAMRA is a negative influence on the beer industry in the UK, and wields much more power than it aught. I love what they've done - save particular styles of english beers from extinction and promote it to new generations, and I love that they actively try to promote the public house as just that - a venue for socialisation rather than getting mashed. However, they are set up around a a particular premise, to promote one type of beer above all else; and unfortunately due to lack of competition, they've become the de facto beer consumer organisation.

I mean, they run he "Great British Beer Festival" - but don't want one of the most innovative (and commercially successful) new breweries in Britain to take part.

But I also agree with MHB above - it's their bat and their ball etc - they can do what they like. The clincher is that they claim to represent a wider audience then they actually do represent; this is a perfect example. It might even just be a question of semantics; call it the Great British Real Ale festival and be specifically exclusionary. At least people know where they stand.

They promote their own narrow definition of "real" ale exclusively above all else; that's what they were set up to do. I don't think they should represent GB's beer interests as a whole because of that exact reason.

 

[Bribie G]

I like MHB's analogy of Harleys and Jap Bikes - perfect

A bit like that old Kazaly song.. "Me, I like football..............."

How's Manchester United going this season ? :lol:

 

[Steve@PMF82]

I am heading over to the U.K soon, i am pretty keen to try some real ales.

I have doing a fair bit of searching and reading about the whole thing, i thought i may as well get the CAMRA good beer guide as well.
But yes they seem to have some pretty tight rules.

I have some questions floating around in my head...

I have been trying to find more specific info on the actual process that defines real ale from other kegged beer.
So far i get that real ale spends about a week in the fermenter, then transferred to the cask that it will be served in to condition.

Are the casks primed at all? or do they just rely on residual CO2 from finishing fermentation?

If they are primed what do they use, does it have to be malt or can they use sugar? Can they use finings?

I also gather that it must be served by hand pump?
So if i naturally conditioned a corny keg, then used CO2 pressure to serve, this would not be considered "REAL ALE " ?

Where as if i re used a Bitburger keg, and just served on gravity no Co2 that would be OK...?

I look forward to more input from those in the know

cheers

 

[Goofinder]

[quote date='Jul 19 2011, 10:12 PM']
^ too true.

That picture with Osama and the weird beard is from one of my blogs. It sure ruffled up a few feathers!
[/quote]
Where did you get the photo of my old man (on the left)? That is a disturbing likeness.

 

[Bribie G]

I am heading over to the U.K soon, i am pretty keen to try some real ales.

I have doing a fair bit of searching and reading about the whole thing, i thought i may as well get the CAMRA good beer guide as well.
But yes they seem to have some pretty tight rules.

I have some questions floating around in my head...

I have been trying to find more specific info on the actual process that defines real ale from other kegged beer.
So far i get that real ale spends about a week in the fermenter, then transferred to the cask that it will be served in to condition.

Are the casks primed at all? or do they just rely on residual CO2 from finishing fermentation?

If they are primed what do they use, does it have to be malt or can they use sugar? Can they use finings?

Usually a bit of sugar, but there is a fair amount of residual fermentation going on as well. Isinglass finings are generally added, and dry hopping can be done with hop plugs inserted through the spile hole of the cask (that lies on its side). That's why hop plugs are the size and shape they are. In the cellar the experienced cellarman keeps an eye on the beer to see when it's ready.

I also gather that it must be served by hand pump?
So if i naturally conditioned a corny keg, then used CO2 pressure to serve, this would not be considered "REAL ALE " ?

The beer can reach the glass by gravity, straight out of the tap. Or by hand pump (beer engine) or, in some Northern and Midlands pubs although becoming rare nowadays, via electric pump - can't find a picture but it's a thing of beauty, imagine something that looks vaguely like a glass coffee plunger set on its side on the bar, set in chrome or polished brass, with a slider that goes right and delivers exactly half a pint into the glass through a spigot, then slides left and delivers exactly half a pint....... Very useful for barmaids who could just hit a button and fill a pint in a fraction of the time required with a hand pump with all its ceremony, so popular in industrial areas at the after-work swill.
In Scotland they had a pump that worked on water pressure called a water engine, don't know if they still exist.

Any pushing of the gas by CO2 or blanketing of the beer with injected CO2 is verboten.


Where as if i re used a Bitburger keg, and just served on gravity no Co2 that would be OK...?

Yes

I look forward to more input from those in the know

cheers

As you would realise, there's a historical aspect to this. When I was in my 20s at the time, traditionally brewed and served ale was in danger of extinction. You could go into a pub that had been serving real ales and find the pumps ripped out and all the beers replaced with filtered, pasteurised fizzy keg beers served on CO2 pressure with little character and flavour - the famous Watney's Red Barrel, Whitbread Tankard etc. So the CAMRA rules were pretty strict as many brewers started finding ways of making drinkers think they were drinking traditional ales but they were just tricked-up keg (e.g. Creamflow nitro keg beer etc).
Fortunately all the old time kegs are dead and a lot of the newer kegs like Brewdog (see separate thread) have obviously learned from the lessons of the past and are bringing out more interesting keg beers, I'd actually try a few yourself and see what you think.

 

[Steve@PMF82]

Thanks Bribie, you tha man.. :beerbang:

 

[HoppingMad]

Attended an Alestar Session at the Local Taphouse Melbourne in May this year and was fortunate enough to hear from Brewdog's James Watt about what he thought of CAMRA when he fielded a question about it.

His reply included:
"They're f@#ked basically."
"They're responsible for single handedly holding back beer innovation in Britain for decades."
"Think of those guys wearing daggy jumpers with leather patches on the elbows - that's CAMRA."

Asked by the audience if Brewdog would ever brew cask ale:
"No."

That's all he would say, then moved on.

Had no idea about CAMRA until attending this event other than I thought they were a bunch of folks preserving beer history, but his comments brought the house down and made two Brits in the audience very angry indeed. I thought there was going to be an almighty stoush, but fortunately the English hecklers calmed down somewhat after downing a couple more beers!

Given the attitude I saw from Brewdog on the night, it's little wonder that getting them to a CAMRA event has been a struggle. The cynic in me thinks that Brewdog love publicity that sticks it to the establishment of anything, so for them this is purely another PR play and a way to get some free press. We're talking about it, so I suppose it's working.

Hopper.

 

[gap]

This news fascinates me. I was drinking BrewDog Punk IPA served from a cask and hand pump
in a pub near Newcastle upon Tyne at Christmas time . This pub had 9 guest cask beers served through
hand pumps going at a time each weekend. Obviously Brewdog can supply some of their beers in cask
if they want to. This pub also had 5an Saint listed for the next week.

I think some of this is a Brewdog stunt.

Regards

Graeme
Graeme

 

[Bribie G]

Hi Gap
I remember that, it was at Blyth, right? So obviously BD can put out cask beer if they want to.