Bulk Priming before Largering

[lmccrone]

I think i have been having an issue with wild yeast getting into some of my bottles so I have decided to put my priming sugar into boiling water to sterilize it. I plan on Largering the beer (its a pils) in a keg and then replacing the beer tap with a bottling wand and bottling after a month.

Here is the question, if i add the priming solution before i Larger, shake the **** out of the keg, will the sugar be evenly distributed after 4 weeks(I am assuming the yeast wont gobble any up at 1 C)?

I want to avoid shaking the keg before i bottle as I understand one of the benefits of Largering is getting all the proteins and dead yeast to drop out of solution and settle on the bottom of the keg. Am I headed for disaster?

 

[Yob]

:blink: why would you take from the keg to then bottle a whole batch? Understand if you are taking a few out for a comp or something but as a prelude to bottling, just leave it in primary or rack to secondary. Also have a look at your cleaning sanitising practices if you are getting the 'odd bottle' it's an indicator you are missing something in the cleaning process.

Cant you just force carb and not worry about the priming sugar?

Putting the sugar into boiling water is good practice.

 

[manticle]

You don't want to agitate finished beer.
Lager.
Doesn't sound like a great idea (except for the boiling - always do that)

 

[lmccrone]

I am allowed one fridge for my brewing and so I use it for fermentation, thats why I bottle.

The issue with only the odd bottle suggests it must be a problem in the bottling process, so my plan is to deal with that aspect of my brewing.

I dont have a counter pressure filler so forced carbonation is also out.

So do you think the sugar will still be evenly distributed after a month of Lagering or will it settle to the bottom?

 

[jc64]

If your plan is to deal with the bottling aspect of your brewing then forget the keg. As Yob said make sure your getting all the bottles super clean then sanitize well with star san. I would think adding a keg in to your process when you are going to bottle anyway is just another chance for something to go wrong.

 

[simplefisherman]

Aside from anything else, I'm pretty sure that lager yeast will still chew away at the sugars even at the low temp, so there probably won't won't be any left for carbonation after a month anyway.

 

[stakka82]

Yeah as stated the lager yeast will mostly likely show some type of activity even at those temps, probably should look at your bottle sanitation process more than anything.

 

[lmccrone]

So i need to rack it off the yeast cake anyway so the keg wont add any extra steps. As far as the yeast eating the sugar i would be surprised if they would get very far at 1 C. I appreciate there is a big difference between ale and lager yeast but my golden ale wont carbonate in the laundry cupboard in 4 weeks because its too cold and thats got to be 15 C at least. Also last year I tried cold conditioning for a month in the bottle after priming and when i opened the bottle it was flat as a tack, so no yeast action.

Good idea on the bottle cleaning but I want to boil my sugar and this seems a better way than running it out of the keg back into the fermenter to mix it with the sugar solution and then into the bottle. Sounds to messy, better to go straight from the keg into the bottle as long as the sugar is evenly distributed.

 

[Yob]

So i need to rack it off the yeast cake anyway Why?

Good idea on the bottle cleaning but I want to boil my sugar and this seems a better way than running it out of the keg back into the fermenter to mix it with the sugar solution and then into the bottle. Sounds to messy, better to go straight from the keg into the bottle as long as the sugar is evenly distributed. so add it when you are ready to bottle, gently stir and then bottle... erm... how are you going to bottle from the keg then?

 

[MaltyHops]

Good idea on the bottle cleaning but I want to boil my sugar and this seems a better way than running it out of the keg back into the fermenter to mix it with the sugar solution and then into the bottle. Sounds to messy, better to go straight from the keg into the bottle as long as the sugar is evenly distributed.

It would be convenient to prime straight into the conditioning keeg and bottle from it but the point of lagering/cold conditioning is so the really fine stuff settle for a clean crisp lager.

Doing what you propose would just stir everything up again when you add sugar and bottle. You'd want to transfer to another anyway if you were kegging otherwise the same problem when you pour beer from the keg. Why bother lagering if you're going top stir it all up again?

So i need to rack it off the yeast cake anyway so the keg wont add any extra steps. As far as the yeast eating the sugar i would be surprised if they would get very far at 1 C. I appreciate there is a big difference between ale and lager yeast but my golden ale wont carbonate in the laundry cupboard in 4 weeks because its too cold and thats got to be 15 C at least. Also last year I tried cold conditioning for a month in the bottle after priming and when i opened the bottle it was flat as a tack, so no yeast action.

Bottle conditioning (for carbing up primed beer as opposed to lagering/conditioning) needs to be done at room temps to happen in reasonable time - no carbing after 4 weeks at 1C is not surprising.

 

[MaltyHops]

Arrgh! Post 666 h34r:

 

[MartinOC]

Arrgh! Post 666 h34r:

It is, the very nature of the beast!

Imccrone, I think you may be getting a bit confused about the steps in the whole process. You want to bulk-prime your batch just as you bottle it. The process is:

For lagers, it's usually: cool fermentation, then slightly raised for diacetyl rest, then drop it back down for lagering (often after transferring from primary to secondary fermenters) & giving it a long time at very cool temps. If this isn't you, then just ignore this bit.

You say you use the fridge for fermentation, so I'm guessing you have some degree of temperature control (even if it's just adjusting the fridge's own internal thermometer)? Do you want to tell us how much control you have (ie. STC-1000)?

If you do your primary fermentation (eg. 8-10C), then transfer to secondary for lagering (eg. 1-3C), you're going to get a much cleaner end-product.

After lagering, THAT is when you should be transferring to another (super-clean & sanitised!) fermenter & bulk-priming. Bottle the batch immediately from that 3rd vessel & then just forget about it for awhile - go & make another batch! If you want to be REALLY anal about it, you can add fresh (cool) yeast to your bottling vessel when you're adding the priming sugars - that will ensure you get fresh yeast to "scavenge" the available oxygen in the bottles & give you a better carbonation result. It's not essential, just a "finesse" thing.

Like anything with brewing, there's more than one way to skin a cat, but I reckon using this regime, you'll get great results.

Edit: Clean & sanitise your ******* bottles!!!!!!! :blink:

 

[lmccrone]

So there seems to be a little confusion about what I'm trying to achieve. This confusion could well be mine.

I have fermented at 10 c, after 2 weeks I racked off to avoid having the beer sit on the yeast cake for a month. I understand this is desirable.

At this point I add the priming sugar and let it sit for a month at 1 c, I understand the yeast will not consume the sugar I don't want them too.

So the keg sits, undisturbed, for a month at 1 c, all the crap settles out of the beer. Then I attach a bottling wand instead of a Pluto gun and fill my clean and sanitised bottles.

Now will the priming sugar, which you may recall was added some weeks ago, be evenly distributed amongst the bottles or will it be concentrated in the bottles filled from the bottom of the keg?

 

[MaltyHops]

...
So the keg sits, undisturbed, for a month at 1 c, all the crap settles out of the beer. Then I attach a bottling wand instead of a Pluto gun and fill my clean and sanitised bottles.

Now will the priming sugar, which you may recall was added some weeks ago, be evenly distributed amongst the bottles or will it be concentrated in the bottles filled from the bottom of the keg?

Ah ... ok. I think the sugar could well crystalise and drop to the bottom in that 1 month at 1C. Personally, I would not trust this for even carbing.

I still think if you're going to bottle a proper lagered lager, it'd be better to rack the beer into another container in one smooth flow so the settled stuff is disturbed as little as possible. WIth a pluto gun, the flow inside the keg will start and stop and stir things up. Maybe a shortened dip tube would also help to reduce disturbing the bottom of the keg.

 

[MartinOC]

Bugger! I replied to this earlier, but my computer stuffed-it up for me! I'll try again....

I was right - it's a process thing.


Primary fermentation at 10C - good.


After the primary is finished (this is up to you), rack it to a clean secondary & chuck it back into your fermentation fridge for lagering ("Lager" means "to store") for a month or so (again, this is up to you) at 1-3C.


If you want "finesse", you could increase the temperature in your fermentation fridge to allow a "diacetyl rest" (more reading/learning required here) before dropping it back down to lagering temperatures. This is why I asked about your temperature control earlier.


After you've finished "lagering/storing", rack it to another fermenter/container & add your priming sugars (& fresh yeast, if you want) & bottle immediately into clean/sanitised bottles. Then just WAIT - & brew another batch! There is NO such thing as "bulk-priming before lagering"

Forget your keg-stage. It's just going to screw things-up & also add a possible infection-possibility. Keep the keg for when you want to serve beers on draught & use gas to serve it.


The rest is patience..

 

[Bizier]

The yeast will eat some sugar. It is very simple sugar you are adding. It would be hard to calculate carbonation, just use bottle priming. I hope you are co2 purging your vessels.

 

[MartinOC]

The yeast will eat some sugar. It is very simple sugar you are adding. It would be hard to calculate carbonation, just use bottle priming. I hope you are co2 purging your vessels.

He's already said he doesn't have counter-pressure facilities....

 

[manticle]

To answer the first question a bit from experience - I have bulk primed a fermenter and left it covered in a cold fridge for a couple of days before bottling. Sugar dissolved ok, bottles carbed consistently.
However ale yeast, 2 days as opposed to lager yeast for several weeks.

I'm still a bit confused though. You are considering this because of some rogue bottle issues but you will still be bottling.
Sorry if I've missed something but you seem to be unnecessarily complicating a tried and true process without actually eliminating the cause of your issues.

 

[labels]

As a mainly lager brewer you're not really correct with a lot of your assumptions.

1/. Taking the beer off the yeast after two weeks is not desirable. There are two stages to lagering. The first is where the beer is in contact with the yeast as it cleans up fermentation by-products. The second stage is where the beer is very cold, around 1C and proteins and polyphenols drop out of solution. Chill haze can also drop out if present but not always. These processes cross over each other.
2/. Lager yeast will definitely work at 1C albeit very slowly. From Experience. If you add sugar and leave the beer at 1C for a month you have a very high chance of ending up with more acetaldehyde than you would have thought was possibly imaginable. Green apple flavour and it's disgusting.

There is no need to rack to a secondary or a keg. Leave the beer for five weeks from the time you make it in the primary. Then transfer gently to another fermenter, mix in your priming solution and bottle immediately. The least you handle the beer, the better.

Just remember, the brewer makes the wort, the yeast make the beer so treat them kindly.

-Steve

 

[jc64]

As a mainly lager brewer you're not really correct with a lot of your assumptions.

1/. Taking the beer off the yeast after two weeks is not desirable. There are two stages to lagering. The first is where the beer is in contact with the yeast as it cleans up fermentation by-products. The second stage is where the beer is very cold, around 1C and proteins and polyphenols drop out of solution. Chill haze can also drop out if present but not always. These processes cross over each other.
2/. Lager yeast will definitely work at 1C albeit very slowly. From Experience. If you add sugar and leave the beer at 1C for a month you have a very high chance of ending up with more acetaldehyde than you would have thought was possibly imaginable. Green apple flavour and it's disgusting.

There is no need to rack to a secondary or a keg. Leave the beer for five weeks from the time you make it in the primary. Then transfer gently to another fermenter, mix in your priming solution and bottle immediately. The least you handle the beer, the better.

Just remember, the brewer makes the wort, the yeast make the beer so treat them kindly.

-Steve

I would go with this 100%, this method will result in the least chance of any infection. And a plus will be the yeast cleaning up the beer during the lagering phase. If space is a issue you can primary ferment in corny kegs.