Brewfather and water chemistry

[Darren Waszkinel]

Hey all

Another question for you all. I am using Brewfather and i have just done my first brew with an experienced brewer which went well. I have received some recipes for the next type of brew that i would like to do but they dont have any water profiling details. I am and will be using RO water for my brewing but i wanted to ask if there is a way in Brewfather to get the details of what i should add or if it has to be included in the recipes that i have received? I have added RO water in my profile in Brewfather but that doesnt show salts etc that i need to add. Any advice/help is appreciated as always

 

[golfandbrew]

Darren,

In your recipe scroll to the water section and hit the calc button on the right. Then select your target water profile and hit the auto button. Once you hit the auto button the app will guide you on the salts/acids to add to your mash, sparge, or both.

 

[Darren Waszkinel]

Darren,

In your recipe scroll to the water section and hit the calc button on the right. Then select your target water profile and hit the auto button. Once you hit the auto button the app will guide you on the salts/acids to add to your mash, sparge, or both.

Thankyou. I selected the style and then hit auto and it did indeed calculate what i needed to add. A follow up question is that i see the PH is 5.63 and i hear that we want to be aiming for between 5.2 and 5.6. How would i get the PH lower? Do i just need to play around with the amounts of salts and try and get it down ?

 

[markp]

Thankyou. I selected the style and then hit auto and it did indeed calculate what i needed to add. A follow up question is that i see the PH is 5.63 and i hear that we want to be aiming for between 5.2 and 5.6. How would i get the PH lower? Do i just need to play around with the amounts of salts and try and get it down ?

Use either acidulated malt (add it in your grainbill) or use lactic or phosphoric acid, the liquid additions can be added in the same spot as your salt additions appears or just add the acid malt in the grain section and it will automatically update the ph.

 

[Darren Waszkinel]

Ok, so to make sure i understand correctly.
The grain effects the PH of the wort so we need to consider that before adding anything. As i am using RO water, i select that as my default water in Brewfather. I think go to the water selection and choose the type of style that i am making and then that will add the salts etc that i need to add.
If the PH is over 5.6, i need to use either acidulated meal that i can add the to the grain bill or i can use phosphoric or lactic acid to the mash for example and that will bring the PH down, that correct ?

I am still learning about PH to be honest, should i be shooting for in the middle of 5.2 and 5.6 or is it style dependant ? When would i be aiming for 5.6 as opposed to 5.2 ?

Thankyou for coming back to me, appreciate it

 

[Darren Waszkinel]

And also, is acidulated malt, phosphoric acid or lactic acid all options of the same quality ? Are the all equally good options to bring the PH down ?

 

[golfandbrew]

Acidulated malt has lactic acid. I think consensus would be to use phosphoric as you find some people will say they can taste lactic acid when it needs to be added in significant quantities.

I am still getting a handle on the right pH myself. I generally am happy in the middle at 5.4. It's important to remember that the software is really just estimating based on the information you have input. To get exact number you need measure the pH. Also important to remember with pH meters or strips their accuracy will depend on calibration and their margin of error.

 

[MHB]

I prefer Lactic Acid, of the ingredients in pale malt that are acidic over 90% comes from naturally occurring Lactic acid made by bacteria on the outside of the malt. There are other pH (note pH is the right way to put it not PH) lowering ingredients, especially dark malts.
I find adding a bit more of something that is already part of the mash a better option than introducing a new ingredient like Phosphoric acid.
Acid malt is just malt that has had a coating of a natural lactic acid broth made by Lactobacillus, it is dried and standardised so that swapping 1% of your base malt will lower the pH by 0.1pH. Lactic acid liquid works the same way, there are pretty standard rates to lower the pH by a given amount, your packaging should say how much you need to hit your target pH.
Phosphoric acid reacts with Calcium in your water, forming insoluble Calcium Lactate and leaving a bunch of Hydrogen ions behind (making it acidic) but it will remove Calcium and anyone using RO water is paying good money for an acid that will remove some of the Calcium, so you need to add more... it gets sort of circular.

pH can get pretty complex, if you really, care buy a decent pH meter, look after it and keep it well calibrated (probably ever brew), do your calculations carefully, check what you get and adjust on the fly.

Here is a pretty good introduction to all things pH and brewing from the Brewers Guild (IBD)
Mark

PS (edit)
The amount of lactic acid needed to adjust pH in the mashing ranges are well under the taste threshold, if you can taste lactic acid you have used way too much!

 

[hefevice]

Ok, so to make sure i understand correctly.
The grain effects the PH of the wort so we need to consider that before adding anything. As i am using RO water, i select that as my default water in Brewfather. I think go to the water selection and choose the type of style that i am making and then that will add the salts etc that i need to add.
If the PH is over 5.6, i need to use either acidulated meal that i can add the to the grain bill or i can use phosphoric or lactic acid to the mash for example and that will bring the PH down, that correct ?

I am still learning about PH to be honest, should i be shooting for in the middle of 5.2 and 5.6 or is it style dependant ? When would i be aiming for 5.6 as opposed to 5.2 ?

Thankyou for coming back to me, appreciate it

What MHB said and some further questions.

What style are you trying to brew?

What was the resulting predicted Calcium (Ca) concentration (ppm) from the salt additions recommended by the water profile? This can also affect the mash pH (higher concentration, lower pH), is important for yeast health in fermentation, and as indicated in the article MHB attached will affect the pH of the final beer. In my view, ensuring sufficient Ca concerntration is probably more important than calculated mash pH at your stage of brewing.

As indicated in the document MHB posted, pH is important for the performance of the various enzymes in the mash, but ultimately it is a compromise across a range of variables. A range of 5.2 to 5.5 (at mash temperature) is probably the best compromise for most styles. 5.6 will probably make good beer (given at the homebrew level you are not particularly worried about maximising extract, etc).

Remember that the recipe calculator is only an estimate. With respect to adjustment, if you are worried about pH I would recommend you get a pH meter or pH test strips and measure actual mash pH before making any adjustments. If you do need to make adjustments, do it incrementally (start with half, measure the result, etc) and roughly scale the expected quantity based on the difference between the calculated and actual pH. You also need to know how your pH meter compensates for temperature (pH decreases with temperature), and the reference temperatures assumed in the recipe calculator. For example a pH of 5.6 at room temperature could correspond to ~5.3 at mash temperature.

Hope this makes sense, as you can appreciate it is a fairly complex subject and probably fairly low down on the list of things to worry about/master if you are just starting out.

 

[MHB]

More on the same vein -
The way salts lower pH is by Calcium (Ca) in the water reacting with Phosphates in the malt.
Its worth noting that there aren't enough Phosphates in malt to get you down much under 5.6pH, no matter how much Ca is available (yes more Ca than just enough to lower pH is good). Make sure you have enough Ca (50-100ppm minimum) above what is used up lowering pH (going to depend on your water), My local water has about 35ppm of Ca, so I add 100ppm, whether its in the form of Chloride, Sulphate, Lactate... is going to depend on the type of beer I'm making, but that's another whole can of worms.

This from Braukaiser is one of the most useful pictorial representations I have seen on the subject.
If you look at the peak activity ranges for Alpha and Beta Amylase, its pretty easy to see that if you were making a super dry beer a slightly lower pH would optimise for Beta Amylase, conversely if you want more meat on the bones, a touch higher could be good.
Braukaiser is well worth reading!

Mark

Funny how everyone forgets that there is a Gama Amylase to, but its optimum pH is about 3, I'm sure its there to save those who add way too much phosphoric
M

 

[golfandbrew]

Great information MHB thank you for sharing. I'll have to give acidulated malt ago next Brew. Here I have been using phosphoric thinking it was the preferred acid.

Cheers

 

[MHB]

Phosphoric works, I prefer Lactic but that's prefer not a right/wrong, I use Sour malt quite often, especially on recipes that get brewed over and over because I know exactly what I'm going to get. Don't need to make adjustments, just brew em!

If you have Phosphoric to hand I would use it. Some people use Sulphuric, Hydrochloric most any acid will work, I just like the flavour I get when its Lactic better than any of the other options.
Mark