Brew Rig Design

[cdbrown]

Hi all, Sorry for all the text but just trying to get my ideas down in some sort of reasonable order.

Am in the early stages of designing a new brew rig using 3 50L kegs I've acquired. I've been reading quite a lot of threads (which may not be the best thing) as I'm pretty confused which way to go. Currently brew using 2x20L pots for heating mash and then sparge water, mash in an esky lined with swiss voile and then boil in the 2 pots before no chill. Lots of mucking around, moving pots, draining, refilling and not much consistency especially with mash temps. Want to get a more straight forward system with the aim of more consistent brews.

Really like the layout of Franko's rig so have based the frame on a 3v system all at the same level. I'm quite keen on using a HERMS setup to control the temp of the mash. I have a 20L pot for that, but most comments say to use a 10L pot for the HERMS. Keen to avoid and welding apart from the frame so weldless fittings are preferred.

Water from garden hose through twin undercounter water filter into HLT. HLT will be heated electrically which I'd like to put on a timer so it will start heating in the morning and be ready when I get up like I've seen other people do. It'll have to be temp controlled as I don't want it going to much over the strike temp. Element I guess will be 2.4kw - I like the hand held type as they are already wired with a plug but most people seem to go for a mounted version with a plastic juntion box. Could the element be directly wired to a temp controller of some sort? PT100 transmitters would be the way to go for accurate digital measurement of the water - thermowell in the wall of the keg or in the T-piece at the outlet? 1/2" full bore valve at the outlet.

All vessels (apart from maybe the HERMS) on the same level so will be using a march pump to pump from HLT to MLT, MLT to MLT through HE, MLT to keggle. If batch sparging then all good, if fly sparging then either need a 2nd pump or spend a bit extra and get a dual head march pump. Just from reading I'm guessing the majority of people batch sparge - is that because of the extra expense or the long time it takes to fly sparge compared to batch? Does fly sparge do more than just improve the efficiency of the mash? At the pump will have inlet valves from HLT and MLT, outlet valves to HE and keggle - any reason to go direct to MLT or is going through HE ok?

Insulate MLT with something from clark rubber, will have a dial thermo on it as I have one already. Will make an outlet of some sort so that the grain bed doesn't get disturbed during recirc or sparging - lots of different ideas being used on these forums. 12" false bottom from the LHBS and will go for a 3-piece 1/2" full bore s/s valve here so I can take it apart. Tubing to pump then out to HERMS with whatever coiled copper I can fit in there. Compression fittings for the copper. I like the idea of both inlet and outlet at the top of the pot rather than needing bulkhead fittings for the wall. Temp transmitter at the outlet of the coil with a controller to switch the HERMS element on/off as needed. Then back up to the sparge arm.

Out of the MLT pumped to the keggle. Keggle heated by 3-ring burner with MP reg. Will slightly drill out the small burner valves if the gas flow seems a little low. Trying to decide on the type of pick up, the BB hop screens look really great, lots of people use smaller false bottoms with good result and I guess with those whirlpooling isn't necessary while it is with the hop screen or a pick up bent to the keggle wall. Another 3-piece 1/2" S/S full bore valve out to gravity fill the cube.

Initially will be standard 20-22L batches, but would like to be able to do some double batches for the house regulars. I'm looking at using silicone hoses for liquid transfer with s/s barbed/screw fittings. Is it anealed copper that I should look for when doing the herms coil? Can a single controller do both the HLT and HERMS temp control or is it better to go for 2. Does the system even sound sensible? Keen to start ordering all the parts but want to make sure I have all the design nutted out and a full parts list sorted. Nothing worse than having to order a 1off item later.

Also is it preferred to have the cracked grains in the MLT and then to add the water or add water and then dump in the grain? I have been doing water then grain and then spend some time getting rid of dough balls.

Thanks for having a read.
Cheers
-cdbrown

 

[kevin_smevin]

Hi all, Sorry for all the text but just trying to get my ideas down in some sort of reasonable order.

Am in the early stages of designing a new brew rig using 3 50L kegs I've acquired. I've been reading quite a lot of threads (which may not be the best thing) as I'm pretty confused which way to go. Currently brew using 2x20L pots for heating mash and then sparge water, mash in an esky lined with swiss voile and then boil in the 2 pots before no chill. Lots of mucking around, moving pots, draining, refilling and not much consistency especially with mash temps. Want to get a more straight forward system with the aim of more consistent brews.

Really like the layout of Franko's rig so have based the frame on a 3v system all at the same level. I'm quite keen on using a HERMS setup to control the temp of the mash. I have a 20L pot for that, but most comments say to use a 10L pot for the HERMS. Keen to avoid and welding apart from the frame so weldless fittings are preferred.

Water from garden hose through twin undercounter water filter into HLT. HLT will be heated electrically which I'd like to put on a timer so it will start heating in the morning and be ready when I get up like I've seen other people do. It'll have to be temp controlled as I don't want it going to much over the strike temp. Element I guess will be 2.4kw - I like the hand held type as they are already wired with a plug but most people seem to go for a mounted version with a plastic juntion box. Could the element be directly wired to a temp controller of some sort? PT100 transmitters would be the way to go for accurate digital measurement of the water - thermowell in the wall of the keg or in the T-piece at the outlet? 1/2" full bore valve at the outlet.

All vessels (apart from maybe the HERMS) on the same level so will be using a march pump to pump from HLT to MLT, MLT to MLT through HE, MLT to keggle. If batch sparging then all good, if fly sparging then either need a 2nd pump or spend a bit extra and get a dual head march pump. Just from reading I'm guessing the majority of people batch sparge - is that because of the extra expense or the long time it takes to fly sparge compared to batch? Does fly sparge do more than just improve the efficiency of the mash? At the pump will have inlet valves from HLT and MLT, outlet valves to HE and keggle - any reason to go direct to MLT or is going through HE ok?

Insulate MLT with something from clark rubber, will have a dial thermo on it as I have one already. Will make an outlet of some sort so that the grain bed doesn't get disturbed during recirc or sparging - lots of different ideas being used on these forums. 12" false bottom from the LHBS and will go for a 3-piece 1/2" full bore s/s valve here so I can take it apart. Tubing to pump then out to HERMS with whatever coiled copper I can fit in there. Compression fittings for the copper. I like the idea of both inlet and outlet at the top of the pot rather than needing bulkhead fittings for the wall. Temp transmitter at the outlet of the coil with a controller to switch the HERMS element on/off as needed. Then back up to the sparge arm.

Out of the MLT pumped to the keggle. Keggle heated by 3-ring burner with MP reg. Will slightly drill out the small burner valves if the gas flow seems a little low. Trying to decide on the type of pick up, the BB hop screens look really great, lots of people use smaller false bottoms with good result and I guess with those whirlpooling isn't necessary while it is with the hop screen or a pick up bent to the keggle wall. Another 3-piece 1/2" S/S full bore valve out to gravity fill the cube.

Initially will be standard 20-22L batches, but would like to be able to do some double batches for the house regulars. I'm looking at using silicone hoses for liquid transfer with s/s barbed/screw fittings. Is it anealed copper that I should look for when doing the herms coil? Can a single controller do both the HLT and HERMS temp control or is it better to go for 2. Does the system even sound sensible? Keen to start ordering all the parts but want to make sure I have all the design nutted out and a full parts list sorted. Nothing worse than having to order a 1off item later.

Also is it preferred to have the cracked grains in the MLT and then to add the water or add water and then dump in the grain? I have been doing water then grain and then spend some time getting rid of dough balls.

Thanks for having a read.
Cheers
-cdbrown

Howdy.

I currently thinking my new 3 vessel system through as well. Your system sounds pretty good.

For the herms coil i plan on using a t-piece on the outlet with a thermowell and camlock fittings for the silicone tube (you can use a barb instead) so you can measure the temp of the wort as it leaves the coil.

I wont comment much on the design because i haven't built mine yet but i can tell you that you should check out welded fittings. I found a place in Melbounre that will well a 1/2 inch stainless socket, including the drilling of the hole and the price of the socket for $27. Much cheaper then a stainless bulkhead.

I think its best to have 2 separate thermostats for HLT and HERMS so the sparge water is at exactly the right temp when you want it. You could probably easily go with one however by simply heating your sparge water a few degrees hotter then you want to account for the couple of degrees it will drop during your mash.

Something small to think about.

 

[raven19]

Sounds like you have most things under control with this build.

I would push for a higher HLT so you can fly sparge and then transfer to kettle with just one pump - saving $300. With a sight gauge on the HLT you wont need to look into it so it can be higher. Depends on brewery location and height available also.

Batch sparge with all three vessels on the one level is also ok, just have to change pump hose ends as required when moving liquid from one vessel to another.

Normal copper pipe for the HERMS should be fine.

You can dump grain in first then underlet with water from HLT - this should avoid any dough balls.

Check out the dedicated HERMS thread on this forum too. Lots of good info there too.

 

[raven19]

Another thought - have you contemplated all electric? You already have planned for 2 out of 3 units electrically powered. Saves refilling gas bottles... :icon_cheers:

 

[cdbrown]

Thanks for the replies.

yum - There will be a temp probe on both the HLT and outlet of HERMS. Was just wondering if they could both be connected to a controller which could then switch on or off the necessary element. Based on most panels I've seen, it looks like separate controllers. That's a good price for welding, I'll see if there's anything around me and compare it with bulkhead fittings.

raven - Chappo mentioned that the dual head march pump is only about $50 more than the normal pump from when he got prices before. A sight gauge is something I want on the HLT, but have no idea where to source the tubing.

Underlet - is this filling through the false bottom rather than the sparge arm on top? I had thought about having some way of pumping through the false bottom purely for stuck sparges, this just adds another reason to do it.

Have been tossing up between elec and gas, in fact first idea was to use gas on HLT and keggle as I have 2 burners, but would like to get head start on brew day so figure electric for HLT is needed. Have 3 gas bottles and usually 1 is always full and spare. Plus I'm not sure about the power load to the shed. Having a 15A circuit would mean being able to have a higher kw element in the HLT and to have one in the keggle as they both wouldn't be on. I've got the gas and burner, MP reg aren't pricey so will head down that route until I get annoyed with the time it takes to bring to the boil or something like that.

Cheers
-cdbrown

 

[benchick]

good 3 vessel design is the brutus 10, im sure you have seen it but if not , look it up, the designer lonnie mac even has plans that are floating around on the net, i got a copy of them and although i wouldnt do exactly what he is doing he has some good ideas worth considering, especially his parts list with prices and part numbers and his temp controlling with an asco gas valve and temp controller, although it is all in us units, i think for the extra expense 2 pumps would make life a lot easier, but thats just my 2 bobs.

 

[manticle]

. A sight gauge is something I want on the HLT, but have no idea where to source the tubing.

Do you mean glass tubing for the guage itself or something else?

 

[cdbrown]

yeah - the tube for the sight gauge.

I'd seen the brutus 10 and looks like a good rig. Might spend some more time checking it out.

 

[Doogiechap]

yeah - the tube for the sight gauge.

I'd seen the brutus 10 and looks like a good rig. Might spend some more time checking it out.

Bloke have a look for plastics suppliers in Perth for polycarbonate tubing. You can either go for something that will fit into a smaller push fit (John Guest type) connector or you can get 1/2" which can go into any old bunnings/ plumbing supplier compression fitting. I can't remember the cost of the 3m length I purchsed a few years ago but it was suprisingly cheap.
Cheers
Doug

 

[raven19]

polycarbonate tubing

+1. I got a length of polycarb tubbing from Beerbelly - yet to install it into mine though.

I also grabbed a weldless bulkhead and fittings from BB while I was there.



Underlet is indeed just feeding the HLT water into your MT via the MT outlet.


(I have a basic timer on my urn HLT atm - works a treat, will be making a Bo Pils tonight).

 

[cdbrown]

Have fired of an email to a local plastics joint - will see what they come back with. Will try to get it to suit fittings from bunnings.

Where do most people get the copper pipe from? I'm hoping the local mitre 10 has some as it's in walking distance, otherwise the length will be determined by what fits in the car. Is it simple to join lengths together or does it need to be welded/soldered?

For those with HERMS which has a temp controller - do you override the controller to heat the herms water prior to recirc and do you have a particular water temp you want to reach before starting recirc? Or do you just start the recirc on cold water and let the system heat itself up?

 

[Justin]

Ah...this is pretty much what you've described h34r:

http://hbd.org/discus/messages/366/33903.html?1187742085

of course I would have no idea who's it is :icon_cheers:

 

[raven19]

Where do most people get the copper pipe from? I'm hoping the local mitre 10 has some as it's in walking distance, otherwise the length will be determined by what fits in the car. Is it simple to join lengths together or does it need to be welded/soldered?

Coiled lengths can be bought from the big green shed. I am sure they would have a pipe connector there too, if the lengths available are not long enough.

For those with HERMS which has a temp controller - do you override the controller to heat the herms water prior to recirc and do you have a particular water temp you want to reach before starting recirc? Or do you just start the recirc on cold water and let the system heat itself up?

You can pitch water into the MT at your protein rest temp (around 50 - 55 deg), or just below your target mash temp. Recirc till clear runnings, then switch it over to your HERMS unit.

With the HERMS unit volume being relatively small, it should not take too long for the vessel to get up to your target temp.

 

[cdbrown]

Coiled lengths can be bought from the big green shed. I am sure they would have a pipe connector there too, if the lengths available are not long enough.

You can pitch water into the MT at your protein rest temp (around 50 - 55 deg), or just below your target mash temp. Recirc till clear runnings, then switch it over to your HERMS unit.

With the HERMS unit volume being relatively small, it should not take too long for the vessel to get up to your target temp.

Cheers for that. Will take a look on the weekend.

Haven't currently allowed to recirc the mash without going through the HERMS. Any reason why as I would have thought pumping through HERMS was alright, just don't want it going into the keggle.

Following a chat with Kirem (thanks mate)

HLT controller http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...p;products_id=3
HERMS controller http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...p;products_id=4
Probes http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...products_id=107 or http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...;products_id=96
SSRs http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...;products_id=30
heatsinks http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...;products_id=77

Do these look ok? Is there a cheaper option but with similar quality around? Could a fridgemate do the same job?

 

[raven19]

My planned thread for the RIMS build log has many startling similarities in regards to equipment (PID, SSRs and the like).

I have sourced my PID, SSR, heatsink, temp probes, etc., all from Evilbay - much cheaper. But those Auberins' PID look schmick!

Recirc prior to going through the HERMS (as I understand) is to limit clogging - however this is much more of an issie in a RIMS. The HERMS coil does not change in diameter hence nothing should get caught in the coi (I was probably thinking of a RIMS setup at the time!) - hence probably wont be an issue for your system.

I went with RTD PT100 probes for more accuracy after discussion with jjeffrey on this forum.

Exciting times for your build! :icon_cheers:

 

[raven19]

Could a fridgemate do the same job?

Definately yes for the HLT. Probably yes for the HERMs - however the fridgemates have very limited programming in terms of setting the delay times. The cheaper evilbay versions have some programming ability to shorten the switch times - more suited to a HERMS application.

Longer time with the power on could lead to temp overshooting in the HERMS.

* Not bagging the Fridgemate, as I have one and is a great unit for the fermenting fridge.

Edit - temp probe type will need to be matched with Fridgemate, etc - may need a thermowell also depending on probe construction.

 

[cdbrown]

Cheers raven - I checked on ebay and while they were cheaper, I want this to last and decided to go with the Auberins gear. RTD PT100 4" probe for the HLT, RTD PT100 2" for the HERMS oulet. Ordered yesterday afternoon and 4 hours later I received an email saying the stuff had already been dispatched and had a tracking code. Top service already. I guess i'll be seeing some control gear arrive on the door step in a few weeks time.

I need to order a twin undersink filter - http://www.psifilters.com.au/buy-online/de...-cartridge.html was recommended to me, might check evilbay to see what they have

Immersion heater - only have 10A circuits out in the shed area, will need to check how many. If I run the HLT side off one circuit and the HERMS and pump off another what size heater could I go for on the HLT? Other loads in the shed is ferment fridge and keezer and I can switch them both off if needed. Hopfully there's two circuits. To add more circuits or put in a higher rated circuit the electrician only needs to work on the shed meter box and not run extra cables from the main house meter box?

Will try and get some copper lengths (9.5mm ID), pipe connectors, compression fittings over the weekend from the local mitre 10 which is closing down (20-50% off). They might have some S/S fittings which will be a bonus.

Cheers
-cdbrown

 

[raven19]

Immersion heater - only have 10A circuits out in the shed area, will need to check how many. If I run the HLT side off one circuit and the HERMS and pump off another what size heater could I go for on the HLT? Other loads in the shed is ferment fridge and keezer and I can switch them both off if needed. Hopfully there's two circuits. To add more circuits or put in a higher rated circuit the electrician only needs to work on the shed meter box and not run extra cables from the main house meter box?

If you go a 2400W Immersion heater that will draw pretty much all your 10A when in use.

I am not sure as to what the Pump draws, but a kettle element of similar 2000+ Wattage would exceed your 10A with the immersion heater afaik.

* I am not an electrician!

A second cicuit (a 15A welding one) would be ideal to add to the shed if budget allows.

 

[cdbrown]

Well it looks as if the power situation may fix itself due to other reasons. A friend gave me his arc welding machine as he was going to throw it away. Didn't even think at the time but of course it needs a 15A ciruit as pointed out by Raven. So I can't weld the frame without the new circuit. Fingers crossed the way it's been wired up will allow a 15A circuit to be added. Might see if he can add 2 of them and put a bigger element in the HLT and run the HERMS and pump off the other. Need a electrician to come out anyway to see if he can change some of the house outlets to another circuit as one trips out when having a few items running.

Got two packets of 6m annealed copper tubing 12.7mm OD, 10.8mm ID. Went looking in Big W and all they had were 7.6L and 19L pots for cheap. Would have grabbed a 10-12L pot if they had it. Already have a 19L pot so I'm going to stick with that for the herms. Is soldering the best way to join the tubing? Seems straight forward to solder, just means buying a propane burner to do the job.

 

[manticle]

Coiled lengths can be bought from the big green shed. I am sure they would have a pipe connector there too, if the lengths available are not long enough.



You can pitch water into the MT at your protein rest temp (around 50 - 55 deg), or just below your target mash temp. Recirc till clear runnings, then switch it over to your HERMS unit.

With the HERMS unit volume being relatively small, it should not take too long for the vessel to get up to your target temp.

I have found plumbing supply shops and places like tradelink have better prices on copper and fittings.