Boil Times 60-90 Minutes.

[Nick JD]

Difference is I’m not trying to blame the malt for my inability to make good beer with it.

Well, what a freaking legend you are then, eh? Thanks for proving my point. "Inability to make good beer" - now there's that axe again. How are you still in business with this holier than EVERYONE attitude?

How about letting the good folk at AHB know what tricks you employ to not get the character that Manticle and I get, rather than being a ****** about it and implying we are bad brewers?

Can you tell us what changes you make to absolutely every task between mashing and secondary to accomodate this grain and rid it of a very faint green husk flavour?

 

[manticle]

Weyermann Floor Malted Pilsner is one of my favourite malts and I have no trouble with it.

It's not trouble, it's just an interesting flavour I have only ever tasted in beers (made by three different brewers) using that malt and some reading suggests that not all corn flavours are DMS but may relate to other things including melanoidens. Said beers were all decocted at least twice.

I decoct a lot of beers so I'm certainly not 'blaming' that process for the flavour either - just wondering if melanoidens and a particular malt can contribute a certain flavour. If so, how and why AND how could you either encourage or discourage said flavour?

The flavour was actually quite pleasant (fresh, uncooked/just cooked sweet corn, not canned, creamed or overcooked).

 

[bigfridge]

Well, what a freaking legend you are then, eh? Thanks for proving my point. "Inability to make good beer" - now there's that axe again. How are you still in business with this holier than EVERYONE attitude?

How about letting the good folk at AHB know what tricks you employ to not get the character that Manticle and I get, rather than being a ****** about it and implying we are bad brewers?

Can you tell us what changes you make to absolutely every task between mashing and secondary to accomodate this grain and rid it of a very faint green husk flavour?

Nick,

I don't know what issues you have with Mark, or his advice - but it seems that everytime someone tries to point to an alternative possability you reply with personal attacks.

As others have said there is heaps of information available in the brewing textbooks and summarised in articles available on the internet. Mark's comment that caused you such anguish was that water profile was one factor. I would add that add that pH control, yeast nutrition (Calcium and Zinc) and controlling the boil to obtain the desired DMS levels are the first places to start.

You may find that there will be plenty of advice from people suggesting "what changes you make to absolutely every task between mashing and secondary" if you were to first describe how you currently brew these problem lagers. Seems unfair that you expect Mark to do this for you.

If you still hate Mark (and probably me now), just think for a moment why would Weyermann invest a lot of effort in producing a premium version of their already excellent pils malt if it had an obvious flaw ? The bottom line is that if you are not getting the results that you desire from this malt you do need to review your brewing process - you can't really expect Weyermann to change their malt to suit your current procedure.

Surely reviewing and revising your brewing procedure to obtain the desired result makes you an excellent brewer. A bad brewer would blame the quality of the raw materials and just accept that the poor beer quality is inevitable.

HTH

 

[bum]

As others have said there is heaps of information available in the brewing textbooks and summarised in articles available on the internet. Mark's comment that caused you such anguish was that water profile was one factor. I would add that add that pH control, yeast nutrition (Calcium and Zinc) and controlling the boil to obtain the desired DMS levels are the first places to start.

The only trouble with this reasonable and fairly balanced point is that Nick is clearly saying it isn't DMS at all. He'd be fairly justified if he were of the feeling that people may not be entirely following his point. He could certainly help that out by explaining it in a less confrontational as you go on to suggest.

The bottom line is that if you are not getting the results that you desire from this malt you do need to review your brewing process - you can't really expect Weyermann to change their malt to suit your current procedure.

Or he could use another product and get the results he want without changing his methods. More than one way to skin a kitten.

 

[Nick JD]

The only trouble with this reasonable and fairly balanced point is that Nick is clearly saying it isn't DMS at all. He'd be fairly justified if he were of the feeling that people may not be entirely following his point. He could certainly help that out by explaining it in a less confrontational as you go on to suggest.


Or he could use another product and get the results he want without changing his methods. More than one way to skin a kitten.

 

[Nick JD]

It's not trouble, it's just an interesting flavour I have only ever tasted in beers (made by three different brewers) using that malt and some reading suggests that not all corn flavours are DMS but may relate to other things including melanoidens. Said beers were all decocted at least twice.

I decoct a lot of beers so I'm certainly not 'blaming' that process for the flavour either - just wondering if melanoidens and a particular malt can contribute a certain flavour. If so, how and why AND how could you either encourage or discourage said flavour?

The flavour was actually quite pleasant (fresh, uncooked/just cooked sweet corn, not canned, creamed or overcooked).

I have officially thrown my towel in. There's no getting through to some people, Manticle.

Seems by MHB's reluctance to outline his methods for reducing DMS using FM Boh Pils might finally be because he's realised we're not getting DMS.

 

[manticle]

For those interested: Page 77 of principles of brewing science

Pyrroles consitute another class of nitrogen bearing heterocyclics relevant to wort boiling. An important example is 2-formyl pyrrole which has a sweet-corn-like flavor. It is often confused with DMS yet the mechanisms responsible for their formation are completely different. The heterocyclic increases with increased thermal loading whereas increasing thermal loading encourages the reduction of DMS by vaporization

Not melanoidens as I first mentioned but reductones which stem from the same non-enzymatic browning or maillard reduction pathway according to the diagram on page 75. On page 74 he also mentions sulphur bearing compounds which contribute cooked cabbage flavours (also heterocyclic and methionine products) which again are caused by excessive thermal loading rather than an inadequate boil.

The above is not meant to constitute an argument so much as facilitate discussion about something people rarely/never mention - that is that flavours people may pick as DMS may not be resulting from that and longer or harder boil may actually contribute rather than decrease those flavours.

Who knows? And who knows why I and several others have picked a sweet, fresh corn flavour in a few beers made with one particular base malt that have had minimum 90 min boils and several decoctions? Maybe there's a relationship with the above and the malting process encourages the development of that particular pyrrole more than others. Maybe there isn't and it's something else entirely.

 

[Nick JD]

For those interested: Page 77 of principles of brewing science



Not melanoidens as I first mentioned but reductones which stem from the same non-enzymatic browning or maillard reduction pathway according to the diagram on page 75. On page 74 he also mentions sulphur bearing compounds which contribute cooked cabbage flavours (also heterocyclic and methionine products) which again are caused by excessive thermal loading rather than an inadequate boil.

The above is not meant to constitute an argument so much as facilitate discussion about something people rarely/never mention - that is that flavours people may pick as DMS may not be resulting from that and longer or harder boil may actually contribute rather than decrease those flavours.

Who knows? And who knows why I and several others have picked a sweet, fresh corn flavour in a few beers made with one particular base malt that have had minimum 90 min boils and several decoctions? Maybe there's a relationship with the above and the malting process encourages the development of that particular pyrrole more than others. Maybe there isn't and it's something else entirely.

Nah, Manticle. Your brewing techniques are terrible. That's why you get this DMS. Stop blaming my favourite grain! You don't know what you're tasting and you don't know how to brew like me. I bend over backwards and lick my own arse to rid my beers of this DMS that you get, but then again I am the World's Best Brewer. Bow to my awesomeness for I am not interested in a discussion because I have ALL THE ANSWERS (I don't really, but since it's my business to sell brewing, I need to pretend I do).

 

[manticle]

On an interesting side note: I did pick what I swore was canned corn in a belgian strong pale thing I recently made. The flavour appeared during cold conditioning.

As I was brewing it for a brewclub dinner, I was quite keen not to provide something laden with DMS, whether from post fermentation infection, yeast production (recipe I've made before but always with a different yeast - first time using that yeast).

Anyway I took some still conditioning, uncarbonated samples along to a meeting.

Fourstar picked the same flavour I did immediately but the number of other suggested flavours I got painted an interesting picture of both flavour thresholds and flavour perception.

Other suggestions were: Ginger beer
Oxidation (paper)
acetaldehyde from incomplete fermentation/conditioning

Even when canned corn was suggested people generally didn't pick it/agree. Quite a few picked it as being a nice beer or potentially nice once properly conditioned and carbed. Left me more confused than when I started.

Anyway, the dinner will get a different beer but this one got conditioned out, dry hopped lightly with styrians (usual for this recipe) and bottled. Drinking one now - it's after midday - and it's not properly carbed and a bit sweet from priming sugar but the canned corn (not fresh) flavour that I picked seems to have dissipated remarkably.

Am I still confused?

Yes

 

[bum]

Nah, Manticle. Your brewing techniques are terrible. That's why you get this DMS. Stop blaming my favourite grain! You don't know what you're tasting and you don't know how to brew like me. I bend over backwards and lick my own arse to rid my beers of this DMS that you get, but then again I am the World's Best Brewer. Bow to my awesomeness for I am not interested in a discussion because I have ALL THE ANSWERS (I don't really, but since it's my business to sell brewing, I need to pretend I do).

Pretty unfair here, Nick.

MHB is one of the few members (two by my count) who routinely (though less frequently than previously) post stuff that actually makes me look at my process and think about what I am doing and why. Tonnes of blokes here have taught me stuff but MHB and the other bloke (who shall go namelesss because he's not involved here) are the only two who're trying to actually help people understand instead of just telling them how to do things better. Being a retailer doesn't make him purely a self-interested front-bottom you often seem to wish to paint him.

 

[bigfridge]

Nah, Manticle. Your brewing techniques are terrible. That's why you get this DMS. Stop blaming my favourite grain! You don't know what you're tasting and you don't know how to brew like me. I bend over backwards and lick my own arse to rid my beers of this DMS that you get, but then again I am the World's Best Brewer. Bow to my awesomeness for I am not interested in a discussion because I have ALL THE ANSWERS (I don't really, but since it's my business to sell brewing, I need to pretend I do).

Nick, I guess that you have picked up the towel again :lol:

Rather than make false and unfounded personal attacks on another AHB member (which is against the posting rules BTW) - do you have anything to add to Manticle's suggestion that there are reductones responsible ?

 

[manticle]

MHB and the other bloke (who shall go namelesss because he's not involved here) are the only two who're trying to actually help people understand instead of just telling them how to do things better.

Not sure they're the only two. Definitely your description of them is right (presuming the other is who I think you mean) and definitely got a wealth of knowledge and experience on which to draw but I think that intention is reflected in more than just two members.

Anyway depsite having had my own issues with one of those previously, I'd love to see this thread move back towards a discussion of the various issues that have been raised because that's what I'm interested in.

Internet arguments are pretty easy to find - solid brewing science discussions less so.

 

[MHB]

I have officially thrown my towel in. There's no getting through to some people, Manticle.

Seems by MHB's reluctance to outline his methods for reducing DMS using FM Boh Pils might finally be because he's realised we're not getting DMS.

Nick I have four posts before this, please show me where I referred to or even hinted that DMS was the problem or in any way involved in the discussion.
As for mashing with any floor malted grain-
Floor malted grain is always going to be a bit more random then modern malt, simply looking at the brewing practices that evolved to accommodate the older styles of malt will give any brewer all the information they need. You would have to seriously consider a Glucan rest so mash in, in the low 40oCs, spend a bit of time in the low 50oCs for Protease then mash as per usual for a pilsner. Personally I would be step mashing but this malt is ideally suited to a triple decoction.
A 90 minute boil would be the minimum, seriously consider boiling for 120 minutes as Urquell do and with reason. Doesnt have to be a rampaging boil, not much more than a simmer really.
Pitch a very big active starter (up around 4 million cells/ml/point) (thats right I remember that thread - you dont believe Budvar know what they are talking about either, do you) brew cooler than you could with a smaller pitch, lager longer than normal with a fair amount of yeast carried over to the conditioning tank.
This is all pretty much standard practice when you are trying to make a really sensational Bohemian Pilsner, there is nothing above that hasnt been discussed here on AHB and that isnt available to anyone who wants to take the time to look for it.
Why anyone would choose to brew with perhaps the most expensive base malt available and fail to use it in a way that gets the most from that investment is beyond my comprehension (mind you I feel that way about a lot of your brewing practices).
Mark

 

[manticle]

Any thoughts on the reductones MHB?

The few lagers I've made have been multiple stepped (although not b-glucan), big pitch, cool beginning, slow ferment, D-rest,/conditioning, yeast carried over to lagering and reasonable lagering length. This flavour I mention, and that I think Nick is referring to is very specific and I have only noticed in beers made with this malt. Presumably there is something you can do to change it process wise, but that doesn't mean there isn't something in the malting process that makes it more prone.

I had a 25 kg bag of the stuff and only noticed it (sweet corn) with a bo-pils I made - made various Belgians with no indication of this flavour so it may be yeast specific or how that grain interacts with a particular yeast strain or something else entirely.

 

[manticle]

On page 74 he also mentions sulphur bearing compounds which contribute cooked cabbage flavours (also heterocyclic and methionine products) which again are caused by excessive thermal loading rather than an inadequate boil.

Correction - page 76.

Apologies.

 

[bigfridge]

Correction - page 76.

Apologies.

Thanks - I was having problems finding the section.

But p76 is all about Diacetyl in my book, but I have the 1989 1st edition.

What section is it in ?

 

[manticle]

Should have specified. Mine is 2nd edition.

Chapter 2: wort boiling, subsection: non-enzymatic browning

In my edition it follows the section on reduction of DMS.

 

[MHB]

You could think of reductones as the Acid/Protein half of the Millard reaction pathway, tho that could be a bit misleading as they can act as antioxidants and catalyse other reactions to.
I think this covers the ground better than I can. Maillard Reactions 101: Theory
How you manage the mashing will in large part determine which ingredients wind up in the beer and whether they are flavoursome or faulty, doing Glucanase and Protease rests will encourage lower molecular weight proteins that tend to be less problematic.
This is something that I am only peripherally aware of, not something I have studied in detail so probably best to do your own digging if you are really interested.
Mark

 

[manticle]

OK. Cheers for the link - doesn't answer everything but certainly gives some additional food for thought.

Aiming to knock out a few lagers in the next few weeks, including a bo-pils or two. Might try the FM for one of those with a b-glucan rest. Rest most beers for 55 but for only 5-10 mins. Would you suggest lower and longer for the Wey FM? Say 50 for 30?

 

[bum]

Would have just added this as an edit but too much time has passed.

are the only two who're trying to actually help people understand

It has been brought to my attention via PM that I've said something here that wasn't exactly what I meant. My language is far too loose above. I didn't mean to be saying anything about anyone's intentions at all. There are lots of knowledgeable and helpful brewers here and I didn't mean to denegrate their important contributions. I was talking more broadly about how I receive certain delivery styles. It is always about me, after all. My apologies to anyone who (quite rightly) may have taken umbrage to the statement above.