Boil Times 60-90 Minutes.

[Nick JD]

Nick I have four posts before this, please show me where I referred to or even hinted that DMS was the problem or in any way involved in the discussion.
As for mashing with any floor malted grain-
Floor malted grain is always going to be a bit more random then “modern” malt, simply looking at the brewing practices that evolved to accommodate the older styles of malt will give any brewer all the information they need. You would have to seriously consider a Glucan rest so mash in, in the low 40oC’s, spend a bit of time in the low 50oC’s for Protease then mash as per usual for a pilsner. Personally I would be step mashing but this malt is ideally suited to a triple decoction.
A 90 minute boil would be the minimum, seriously consider boiling for 120 minutes as Urquell do and with reason. Doesn’t have to be a rampaging boil, not much more than a simmer really.
Pitch a very big active starter (up around 4 million cells/ml/point) (that’s right I remember that thread - you don’t believe Budvar know what they are talking about either, do you) brew cooler than you could with a smaller pitch, lager longer than normal with a fair amount of yeast carried over to the conditioning tank.
This is all pretty much standard practice when you are trying to make a really sensational Bohemian Pilsner, there is nothing above that hasn’t been discussed here on AHB and that isn’t available to anyone who wants to take the time to look for it.
Why anyone would choose to brew with perhaps the most expensive base malt available and fail to use it in a way that gets the most from that investment is beyond my comprehension (mind you I feel that way about a lot of your brewing practices).
Mark

See, here's again where you are inciting my abrasive comments. You've assumed that I don't do these things your have outlined. That is very rude, and I will continue to have no respect for you for this very reason.

I do the same thing for both FM and non FM, and one I get corn husks, the other I don't. I'm prepared to discuss this amiably, but you start off insinuating that I'm not doing anything with regard to normal Boh Pils brewing methods.

I've underlined why you are a dick. And I think Manticle's insights and my high-gravity boil post decoction may be largely responsible for the flavour I get, although I still don't understand why floor malting creates the precursors all other things being equal.

If you'd like me to explain again why I don't like your arrogant attitude assuming I don't know how a Boh Pils is made, please continue being an arse.

"mind you I feel that way about a lot of your brewing practices" ... you're really showing your cards now aren't you? Arrogant prick.

 

[drew9242]

Nick I have four posts before this, please show me where I referred to or even hinted that DMS was the problem or in any way involved in the discussion.
As for mashing with any floor malted grain-
Floor malted grain is always going to be a bit more random then "modern" malt, simply looking at the brewing practices that evolved to accommodate the older styles of malt will give any brewer all the information they need. You would have to seriously consider a Glucan rest so mash in, in the low 40oC's, spend a bit of time in the low 50oC's for Protease then mash as per usual for a pilsner. Personally I would be step mashing but this malt is ideally suited to a triple decoction.
A 90 minute boil would be the minimum, seriously consider boiling for 120 minutes as Urquell do and with reason. Doesn't have to be a rampaging boil, not much more than a simmer really.
Pitch a very big active starter (up around 4 million cells/ml/point) (that's right I remember that thread - you don't believe Budvar know what they are talking about either, do you) brew cooler than you could with a smaller pitch, lager longer than normal with a fair amount of yeast carried over to the conditioning tank.
This is all pretty much standard practice when you are trying to make a really sensational Bohemian Pilsner, there is nothing above that hasn't been discussed here on AHB and that isn't available to anyone who wants to take the time to look for it.
Why anyone would choose to brew with perhaps the most expensive base malt available and fail to use it in a way that gets the most from that investment is beyond my comprehension (mind you I feel that way about a lot of your brewing practices).
Mark

Thanks for a good thought provoking post. Gives me food for thought about trying something new. That's what I love about brewing. There is always something new to learn/try.

 

[dr K]

Well certainly a good laugh !
The problem with all of us is that our noses, tongues and brains are different and the problem with beer is that some by-products go together.
DMS gets picked on a lot because some people will tell you that no-chilling will lead to botulism and DMS, no-one has died of no-chill related botulism ergo no-chill does not cause DMS.
Whether there is more DMS in a no-chill beer than a fast chill is irrelevant if you cannot detect it, I am told that detectable levels of DMS are similar to cooking cabbage (cooked cabbage either drives it off or DMS is not so bad, btw I am cooking cabbage right now). I am also told it smells like cooked corn, well I may not be a gormand but I can tell the difference between the sweet body of cooked corn and the , lets face it, sulphorous odour of cabbage....thats my take on DMS, whats yours....
Back to smell/aroma/evaluation..it is not unusual to small amounts of both diacetyl and acetaldehyde in a "homebrew", after all they are both by-products of fermentation and both a result of not quite finishing the process (time is not the only factor nor is temperature, yeast health and management are both higher on the list), DMS too falls into the category of avoidable "faults".
When mixed together, as they often will be, its up to the judge's nose and experience to evaluate, and at low levels its all about threshold and it can be very difficult.
Shorts answer, before you pin the tail, make sure you get the right donkey.

K

 

[bigfridge]

... I think Manticle's insights and my high-gravity boil post decoction may be largely responsible for the flavour I get, although I still don't understand why floor malting creates the precursors all other things being equal.

Ok Nick .... since you asked so nicely, I would like to help you but you need to give up on the abuse and start to help us to help you. You claim that you know how to brew lagers, but I cannot see anywhere that you have actually described how you brew lagers !

As you say, the standard Weyermann pils malt gives you a good tasting beer, but you are unhappy with the result when using the premium pils. So far there has been information supplied about non-enzymatic browning, hetero-cyclic suphur compounds and reductones. I must admit that I have not read all of your posts here as I find your abusive, abrasive posts unpleasant, but I can say that I have no idea what your current brewing practices are and hence I too, find it difficult to suggest what you could change.

This all assumes that you want to change - you responded with a smiley-face when someone else suggested that one option was to just accept that this grain is not for you and stick with something that does work. Hopefully you won't start to underline me !

If you consult the spec sheets that Mark posted previously, you can see that the Premium is less modified (Hartong index of 34-39) when compared to the standard Bohemian Pilsener malt (38-44 Hartong). The Hartong index represents the ratio of soluable nitrogen to total nitrogen in the malt, which gives an indication of how much protein has been broken down during malting. Mark has suggested that you look at your mashing schedule, but I am not sure if you read it as it wasn't underlined.

Avoiding oxidation of the mash by spashing and stiring is also critical.

One worthwhile avenue for you to explore would be to consider if this reduced level of soluable nitrogen has an effect on the Amino Acid level of the wort and if this could be influencing the Maillard pathways dominant. The maillard compounds are formed during malt kilning and mashing, but the boil is the final determinant of their character. George Fix discusses these compounds in Analysis of Brewing Techniques (Table 1.26 p53 Sulphur-Bearing Heterocyclic Compounds) and considers that 'extreme thermal loading of wort appears to be the most likely mechanism for their creation". The percentage evaporation loss is a very usefull control parameter. The optimum rate of around 10% is sufficient for extracting hop constituents and controlling DMS and is achieved by using a 90 minute boil.

FWIW my standard procedure is to ensure an extended dough-in so that the malt spends around 30 mins going from room temp to 50c and then jumps up to 65 (avoiding spending much time at 50 as this kills the head retention), 90 minute mash with 10% evaporation during a 90 minute boil and do not experiece the character that you complain about.

Before anyone can help you further you will need to tell us the specifics of your mashing and boiling procedures as I beleive that this is where the solution lies.

HTH,
David

 

[Nick JD]

Before anyone can help you further you will need to tell us the specifics of your mashing and boiling procedures as I beleive that this is where the solution lies.

No help/solution needed. I use non-fm Boh Pils for the most delicious Boh Pils eva. Thanks anyway.

 

[Mike L'Itorus]

I use non-fm Boh Pils for the most delicious Boh Pils eva.

And I use Twinings for the most delicious tea, Eva.

 

[bigfridge]

No help/solution needed. I use non-fm Boh Pils for the most delicious Boh Pils eva. Thanks anyway.

That's great news - I am pleased for you.

Any chance that you can share your process so that we can all learn a bit and enjoy the most delicious Boh Pils eva as well.

 

[cam89brewer]

[quote name='Mike L'Itorus' post='924860' date='Jun 18 2012, 11:44 AM']And I use Twinings for the most delicious tea, Eva.

[/quote]

It think this is exactly what this thread needed!! something to break the tension... :lol:

 

[Malted]

That's great news - I am pleased for you.

Any chance that you can share your process so that we can all learn a bit and enjoy the most delicious Boh Pils eva as well.

Step 1: take a 10 litre pot and put it on your stovetop?

 

[Nevalicious]

Step 1: take a 10 litre pot and put it on your stovetop?

You're incorrect Malted. One must use a 19L BigW pot... Tsk tsk, haven't you learnt anything!