Biscuit, Victory And Crystal

[Lecterfan]

Hi all,

I have been trawling (not trolling) the net but not been able to find a definitive answer from a resource that I trust.


Including next weeks bulk buy I have just accumulated a large array of grains (I inlclude the future in my now - temporality has no jurisdiction over my recipe formation).

I am aware of the academic/theoretical difference between victory and biscuit, but how does each of these grains go in an English pale ale (or even ESB)with a variety of crytsal malts?

I am led to belive victory is nuttier than biscuit, but can I use say 500 gms victory (or biscuit in a different beer) and still have a combined of 300gms crystal (a mix of light and dark) in the same 27L batch?

I understand that they (biscuit, victory vs "crystal" malts) play different roles, but do they compliment or squabble?

So far I am guessing they work together ok, but I am not a huge fan of overly complicated grain bills so I just need to kow that if a beer has a whack of victory or biscuit, does this mean the crystal needs to be dialled down or cut out altogether?

I'm pretty pissy so I hope this post makes sense.

Thanks in advance. :icon_cheers:

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

I'm pretty pissy so I hope this post makes sense.

As are most of us homebrewers on sunday night.

Goomba

 

[MattC]

Depending on what sort of beer you are brewing, you could be using all 3 together. If ur doing an english pale or ESB most of the biscuity nutty character comes from the base malt so if ur adding biscuit and victory, i would keep them low if at all. Crystal on the other hand is different and will add a different dimension than biscuit and victory! The crysral type malts which u can steep ( incl victory) u should keep at or below 10% or possibly 15% if the style calls for some residual sweetness! I would not be using 500g victory and 300g crystals in one 27 batch. I feel it would be way too sweet and would totally throw out the balance.

Cheers

 

[Lecterfan]

Cheers - that's what I'm hoping to answer - the victory and biscuit malts seem to carry enough of their own character that too much crystal would ruin it.

To clarify: I won't use victory and biscut together BUT - how much victory+ crystal can I get away with in a brew ( say aiming for 40IBU), and the same question for biscuit+ crystal...

Thats more what I'm concerned with...

Thanks again.

 

[MattC]

Its hard to give a straight answer as diff styles will allow the useage of each at diff rates. But as a rule i would look at keeping each lower than 5%. Are u asking about a style ( esb or eng pale) or just in general?

Cheers

 

[Lecterfan]

I'm being a pain in the arse and just asking in general...if I'm talking about say a 1.048 OG, 35-40IBU beer using mostly maris otter for base malt that I don't want to be too out of balance. Once I've got my "eye in" I'll move towards IPA territory...

Why are English beers so much harder to find definitive recipes DAMMIT !!!

 

[MattC]

Have u looked at some recipes in the DB?

 

[Lecterfan]

I have been trawling (not trolling) the net but not been able to find a definitive answer from a resource that I trust.

Have u looked at some recipes in the DB?

Yep.

But falling short of reading EVERY single ESB or associated recipe I can't work out the general link/relationship between these malts (vic / bisc and crystal malts) except in browns, porters etc.

Anyway, thanks for your help Matt, I'm just starting to sound like a broken or someone who enjoys flogging a dead horse...

I'll just have a crack and see what happens - but reading between the lines, vic/bisc in a beer (although they are different to each other and won't be used together in the same beer) will go a long way in providing a type of maltiness that means that crystal addtions can be reduced severely...

 

[mje1980]

I use biscuit ( and wey abbey is a very good sub for it ) in UK ales a lot. Very nice toasty maltiness. Mix it with crystal for sure ( i like simpsons heritage, yummo, or caramunich 3 ). I have used 40% abbey in a brown, and i loved the result, very malty toasty.

Just got a kilo of victory, so keen to compare

 

[MattC]

Yep.

But falling short of reading EVERY single ESB or associated recipe I can't work out the general link/relationship between these malts (vic / bisc and crystal malts) except in browns, porters etc.

Anyway, thanks for your help Matt, I'm just starting to sound like a broken or someone who enjoys flogging a dead horse...

I'll just have a crack and see what happens - but reading between the lines, vic/bisc in a beer (although they are different to each other and won't be used together in the same beer) will go a long way in providing a type of maltiness that means that crystal addtions can be reduced severely...

As I mentioned before, crystal malts (incl victory) do not add much in the way of fermentables so It recommended that you should keep them to below 10% combined or possibly up to 15% in other styles like an ESB where the residual sweetness may be balanced out by the bitterness. Biscuit on the other hand is not a crystal type malt and will contribute fermentable sugars but needs to be mashed. You can use biscuit in slightly higher proportions than crystal and victory however you will need to mash it with a base malt that has extra diastatic power as it doesnt have its own enzymes and cant convert its own starches into fermetable sugar. Hence I think its recommended that you should keep the total amount of biscuit to below 15%.

I have only recently bought and used my first lot of Victory malt so I am by far no expert. But as an example, I used it in an English Brown recipe. It does give a nutty character, however I used it with an equal proprtion of crsytal 40L and pale choc malt (250g) I think the nutty character was a little subdued and was dominated a bit by the caramel from the crystal. Next time I would up the victory to 300 and drop the crystal to 200g or even 150g.

What Im planning to do (when I get the chance) is to crush a small amount of each grain I have (50g or something) and steep in 70C water for 20 min and then strain and do taste and aroma test on all of them. That will allow me to get an idea of the character that each grain will contribute on their own.

Cheers

 

[mje1980]

Victory is a toasted malt, not a crystal malt.

 

[MattC]

Victory is a toasted malt, not a crystal malt.

Yeah, sorry. I meant crystal type malts. ie which do not offer much in the way of fermetables and can be steeped. I didnt mean victory was a crystal malt. Sorry for the confusion folks.

Cheers

 

[Lecterfan]

Thanks guys, in the clarity of a crisp August morning the muddy-headed drunken uncertainty of last night has been washed away.

After picking up grain from the bulk buy this weekend it will be double batch-ahoy for a few English ales methinks.