Biab On A Agset Up Question

[delboy]

here is one for you BIAB brewers i have been reading the posts on the brew in a bag idea and was thinking that with the efficancy that pistol patch was explaining . would it give a similar result if you were to do say a 36 ltr batch on a standard AG setup but mashed with 20 liters then sort of resoaked with 20 ltrs you would get a similar result at gaining efficency of the numbers in his tutorial?

i know in theory it would be as if i was doing a batch sparge "but without the hassle" or would this be a disaster?

the reason i ask is i would still like to use the mash tun separatly to the kettel then do a transfure in two stages then boil .

i am thinking it may make the whole process a little simpler .

i might be barking up the wrong tree here but is there any reason i wouldn't work?
as i am short on finishing my AG set up i thought it might get me going into the darker side of brewing :beer:
thanks for the feedback in advance

delboy

 

[PistolPatch]

No way that you are barking up the wrong tree delboy. What you say opens up opportunities for a whole lot of troops considering AG.

Your question boils down to liquor to grist ratios (for new guys, this is how much water you add to the grain when mashing.) We've been through a fair whack of discussion on these ratios and BIAB has pushed the ratio to its extreme without any worries.

We already know that mashing at both low and high liquor ratios works so unless there is some mysterious 'bell-curve' effect than your idea is sound.

As you know, I BIAB now and love it for many reasons. I absolutely think all those thinking about cracking their first AG should use this method first and be very wary of changing from it without a physical/practical reason.

But, there are some instances (I've been trying to think of some obvious ones but I actually can't but am happy to be corrected) where BIAB isn't going to work. Anyway, forget that as batch-sparging is my next favourite...

For those wanting to batch-sparge then making a BIAB bag for an esky may be alot easier for many than making a traditional manifold and I'm quite certain that it would give equivalent if not superior results. I remember being bewildered by manifolds and mash tun designs in my pre-AG days. Certainly the bag idea allows easier cleaning and a lot more agitation of the mash.

The other thing with your suggestion delboy is that now we have answered the liqior to grist ratio question, those with whatever size esky (as long as it is not too small) can batch-sparge in any manner they like.

A lot of great brewers contributed info to this thread that, should you read it all, shows just how tolerant batch-sparging (BIAB being a variation of this) actually is.

So, with all-grain (batching or BIAB), I reckon you can, within reason, do what you want. Start with what suits your circumstances and, if you are a good brewer, make any changes slowly. I'm only recently learning that a change that you make on one brew needs proving over several brews before you should accept it as being valid.

Not changing a heap of things on every brew as a beginner is very boring though and is probably advice that shouldn't be followed. I reckon part of being an adequate, let alone good, brewer is trying new ideas, making some errors and occassionally, accidentally, by these errors or whatever, coming up with something helpful. It's nicer still on AHB when you pass your mistakes on.

How's that for an answer delboy? It probably needs a good morning edit but I know you like my rambles

All the best,
Pat

P.S. I've been trying to think up a brewery name. Does, 'The Long Rambling Brewery,' sound appropriate?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Hey Delboy.

Just confirming what Pat said, but a little more compactly

You are correct, you sound very much like you just want to do a standard batch sparge, but using the Bag instead of a manifold or Hose braid. I know a couple of people were going to try this out, but not sure if anyone did.

If I were to have a guess at a process I would go with ---

-Line mash tun with bag
-Dough in at a normal Liquor to grist ratio (no need to do otherwise)
-Mash for your set time
-Pull the bag at least partially out of the Mash Tun, just enough so that it is well clear of the sides and can drain freely, drain out your wort. No need to squeeze or wait too long for the bag to stop dripping or anything.
-Plop bag back into Tun, add sparge water, agitate LOTS
-Pull bag again, assuming you are only batching once, this time, after you transfer the majority of your wort, you would squeeze/allow the bag to drip completely.

There. That seems reasonable to me (or not?? anyone?) You have done a nice traditional batch sparge, but you have avoided the re-circulation step, mabe saved 5 or 10 minutes in draining time and you have recovered more wort from your spent grain, so your total system efficiency will be improved over the same batch sparge with a manifold/braid/false bottom.

Also, assuming that you are using an Eski mash tun that has a built in drain plug. There would be no modification required to the eski; and you can still use it to cart the beer you made to your next social engagement

Not much shorter than Pat's post, but a little. Hope I helped some.

Thirsty

EDIT: It seems that I just more or less described process that Wardhog already talked about on the thread Pat linked to in his post

 

[PistolPatch]

Poor delboy got you and me consecutively Thirsty - lol.

I was thinking though that instead of pulling the bag out, you'd just leave it in and drain the esky from the tap. I reckon the fine mesh of the bag would make a great 'manifold' and this is what made me use the phrase 'equivalent or superior,' above.

I also think that this method would be pretty hassle-free as well as reducing any oxidisation risk.

I'm not totally sure but I think hughman666 is doing it this way.

Spot ya,
Pat

 

[Wardhog]

If I were to have a guess at a process I would go with ---

-Line mash tun with bag
-Dough in at a normal Liquor to grist ratio (no need to do otherwise)
-Mash for your set time
-Pull the bag at least partially out of the Mash Tun, just enough so that it is well clear of the sides and can drain freely, drain out your wort. No need to squeeze or wait too long for the bag to stop dripping or anything.
-Plop bag back into Tun, add sparge water, agitate LOTS
-Pull bag again, assuming you are only batching once, this time, after you transfer the majority of your wort, you would squeeze/allow the bag to drip completely.

Yep, sounds like it. I found that the efficiency this way really sucked, and to increase to a reasonable level, sparge twice. Even then, it only got to mid 60% at best. I don't know if I needed to agitate more or something else, but it only meant buying an extra dollar or two's worth of grain.

However, it'll get you off the ground and making delicious beers while you sort out a more efficient piece of equipment.

 

[berazafi]

Yep, sounds like it. I found that the efficiency this way really sucked, and to increase to a reasonable level, sparge twice. Even then, it only got to mid 60% at best. I don't know if I needed to agitate more or something else, but it only meant buying an extra dollar or two's worth of grain.

However, it'll get you off the ground and making delicious beers while you sort out a more efficient piece of equipment.

Finer Crush = more eff, if you beer starts to taste astringent you have gone to fine, because you guys are using a bag the effect of the filtering of the husks is next to irrelevent so you probably dont even need to work about keeping husks intact etc etc



OK PP now you can expand that into 1000 words so there is no doubt about what is being said :beer:

 

[delboy]

thanks chaps you have given me some ideas here .mother inlaw will bake my grain bag up a few inches smaller than the circumfrence of my keg MT but long enought to be supported off the bottom"so it sort of sits in the hot liquor i will aggitate grains in the bag with a smaller mash paddle and batch twice .the mash tun has a false bottom in it as well whitch will suuport some of the bag whilst hanging ithink this will be great as stuck sparges would be a thing of the past .this was and has been my major concern as alot of ag brewers mention that they get a stuck sparge and then start poking wire and things in to the grain bed and up the ball vavle to remedy well i just dont want that hassle and beleive the bag will prevent this IMO. I beeive it will also conquore the efficency myths as well as keep clean up time to a minimum no gritty bits getting in to the plumbing or plate chiller. and all i would have to do is back flush the system after use and sanitize.

less worries i recon and more time to enjoy brewing rather than being married to a rigorous cleaning episode after brew day.

wicked pat ,berazfi,wardhog and thirsty boy.

it opens up a whole new world.

delboy

 

[PistolPatch]

OK PP now you can expand that into 1000 words so there is no doubt about what is being said :beer:

Cool! Well firstly....

Just joking

Delboy: I'd be really wary of making tha bag smaller than the kettle as a few guys have tried this and had real problems with efficiency. If you make the bag large enough so it lines the kettle, your efficiency should be at least equivalent to batch-sparging. In fact, it should be a few percent higher.

It's important to be able to give the mash a good agitation a few times. When the bag is small, this is very difficult. If it is a liner, then it is dead easy. I use a paint-stirrer (like a long potatop masher) as a paddle and all you have to do is jiggle this up and down a few times for agitation.

I'm almost 100% certain that everyone who has tried a smaller bag has run into problems so maybe re-think this apsect mate.

As mentioned yesterday, I also really think just leave the bag in as you drain the kettle.

Spot ya,
Pat

 

[delboy]

okay the bag was only going to be as big as the opening of the tun so it is easy to put in and out ,my tun is 400mm wide as i have cub squat kegs and the opening cut out in the top is 350mm wide but is see what you are saying so a 380 wide bag in the tun would line it a bit better and it wold just rest on the false bottom too.

i like the potato masher idea but i will go with a commercial fish slice there abit like an egg flip but heavier in gauge and slotted they cost about 30 bucks and are off the self.
del