Biab & No Chill Comp Results

[Bribie G]

Katzke I'll pm you the recipe, I'm brewing a fresh batch today to enter in the Nats and I'd rather not post until I see whether it does ok or bombs miserably
Also it uses Wyeast 1469 West yorks but you could sub Ringwood.

:icon_cheers:

 

[BjornJ]

BIAB seems to have a pretty big following in Australia even if it is, in some critics opinions, fundamentally flawed, so I would have thought that over the last how ever many weeks this thread has been open we would have heard some proud crowing from successful BIAB Boys and Girls.

K

Sorry for butting in, I am very green to the AG thing with only the 3rd one coming up this weekend.
Learning about this from reading on this site, the whole BIAB and NC thing seems "natural" as I didn't know of any other way before trying BIAB.
However, I have read my Palmer and it is clear that there is way more going on while brewing and fermenting than I will ever even try to understand

But one thing that keep popping up on the forums is that brewers using "other" ways to brew with more vessels and proper lautering/mashing tuns, etc seem to seriously distrust the whole BIAB thing?

Not trying to be funny here, just asking what the concerns are from experienced brewers about BIAB.
Is the concern that the temperature control is not as good, the grain/water ratio changes the extraction chemistry, or what are the things that make the more experienced brewers with the full kit say the traditional method is better?

(my BIAB came last in the tasting competition last Saturday at the Northern Beaches brewing club but there is no doubt the brewer is to blame for that one)

Thanks
Bjorn

 

[reviled]

Not trying to be funny here, just asking what the concerns are from experienced brewers about BIAB.
Is the concern that the temperature control is not as good, the grain/water ratio changes the extraction chemistry, or what are the things that make the more experienced brewers with the full kit say the traditional method is better?

Its cos theyre afraid Its like the Americans being afraid of the first black president :lol:

 

[crundle]

If you ever get around to reading the entire BIAB thread (set aside a few days at least), then it seems the initial concern was the grain/water ratio might lead to a more dextrinous wort from memory (derived in great part from John Palmer's How to Brew book), then when that didn't really manifest in a noticeable way, the concern changed to long term stability of beers made using the BIAB method. I'm not really sure about that part of it, as I am still fermenting a Doppelbock that I will bottle and keep for a year.

Another concern seemed to be that the method might be best suited to darker beers, but I think that Bribie and some others are making some excellent light beers, so that one is probably about to be debunked also.

Having said all that, it seems like a foregone conclusion that BIAB would work as well as it does, but it must be remembered that the bulk of brewing information out at the time seemed to point in the opposite direction, so please don't take my comments to imply that those who advocated potential issues with BIAB that did not eventuate are stupid or anything, because it was a lot of their comments that drove others to investigate the issues fairly thoroughly, and their vocalising of potential issues is part of the reason that BIAB has become so popular.

EDIT: I came in 5th place in the SABSOSA in the Porter, and well down the list with my smoked pale ale, so hopefully do better next year and get to enter in a lot more categories! I now understand the idea of brewing for competitions and trying to make sure your beers are at their peak in time for the comps...

It will be interesting to see the results after the Nationals in regards to BIAB/Traditional 3 Vessel and No Chill/Chiller

Crundle

 

[RdeVjun]

Yeah, there's been plenty of sniping at BIAB techniques and also of other techniques too. In the last few months though there's been quite a few comps where BIAB has done well, and the technique earned a few medals up here in Qld just last weekend AFAIK, I don't have the numbers but I'm fairly sure our fellow BIABers put in a very decent performance.
But what I do feel strongly about is that the technique is an appropriate and very low cost means for a brewer to try their hand at all grain brewing. As I've said before, anyone who has brewed kits will only need a bag, a stockpot and perhaps a thermometer to trial the method. The cost of a more traditional system, even adapting commonly- available domestic goods could be prohibitive just for an experiment, and if the brewer decides for some reason that it may be better for them to stick with kits or extract then there hasn't been this significant outlay to absorb in equipment which could be thereafter largely useless. On the other hand, a bag can be had for <$10 and a $20 stockpot needs no modification at all (i.e. so can be used for other purposes), so for around $50 or $60 to include some ingredients and a thermometer, a kit brewer can try an all grain method without the risk of it being an expensive disappointment. That's one of the big pluses I can see with stockpot BIABing, and I'll not criticize anyone if they try it and decide it just isn't for them.
Advancing on from there to different techniques can be relatively straightforward but, truth be told, I've actually failed to see the need so far- I'm still using a stove- top/ stockpot/ BIAB/ bucket- sparge method in much the same way as my very first and have been pleased as punch with the results. My attitude is that its MY beer and if MY technique works for ME then there's no biggie, I don't think one way is right and one way is wrong, it just means they're different. :icon_cheers:

 

[crundle]

I have nothing to back this up of course, but even within traditional 3 vessel setups there was probably consternation when people began to experiment with different sparging methods,etc.

When anything new is tried, there is resistance to change, which is healthy if it is constructive and detailed, and can help create better methods based on evidence rather than intuition. No chilling seems to be a case in point given that it is used by both BIAB'ers and traditional folk. It still has some grey areas such as bitterness and hop aroma, but that may also be a variable due to the differences between individual breweries more so than the actual cubes, given the conflicting anecdotal evidence of many on this forum on the effects of no chilling.

What isn't in dispute though is the number of people who exclusively no chill and still produce fine beers.

@RdeVjun - I agree with you that BIAB gives an easy entry point into AG. I waited for months reading up and working out which way to go, traditional or BIAB, and then when I settled on BIAB it was a decision of a large pot or an urn, which fell the way of the urn. If I had had the benefit of your even lower entry point into AG I would have given it a crack for sure, and probably much sooner than I eventually did. One AG brew is all it takes to get hooked!


Crundle

 

[Katherine]

If you have a love of brewing. It does not matter what method you use. We love the process and constantly making changes as we get to know our own equipment!

Lloydie and I got a place in the Nationals with KT's hopburst! first comp also!

Katie

 

[drsmurto]

I thought the concern was the introduction of a sewing machine to the required brewing gear....


:lol:

 

[RdeVjun]

@RdeVjun - I agree with you that BIAB gives an easy entry point into AG. I waited for months reading up and working out which way to go, traditional or BIAB, and then when I settled on BIAB it was a decision of a large pot or an urn, which fell the way of the urn. If I had had the benefit of your even lower entry point into AG I would have given it a crack for sure, and probably much sooner than I eventually did. One AG brew is all it takes to get hooked!

+ 1 mate, but what I didn't realise is that I had all of the kit, just bar a bag, on hand all the time! Jeez I felt silly when I figured that out! I should've spent less time reading and more time actually doing things!
Getting a bigger 20 litre pot though made for happier days and bigger batches, but I bided my time for a few months until they showed up at big double u for $20, although I'm always on the lookout for a 30 or 40 litre pots.
I've just recently realised though that I have had a pair of cleanskin stainless firkins sitting here all along too, was going to use them in a 3-v or herms, but as I say, I haven't been in much of a rush to do that. So I have been preparing to use one for the next TTL-esque BIAB batch this weekend, although the stove may struggle to get it boiling, the 20 litre stockpot takes a fair while (>1/2 hour) to get up to boiling after the mash, but once there it can maintain it throughout the boil with ease.
(Firkin: ~40 litre keg- we had the tops cut off when we used them for dairying- should be perfect for brewing!)

Urn/ stockpot, doesn't matter- both achieve the same end and both knock out some cracking beers! :icon_cheers:

@Dr S: Go on, you know you just want to sew something!

 

[chappo1970]

Or Mum getting upset that her pillowcases where missing h34r:

@BjornJ

In all seriousiness I don't have an issue with this method of brewing at all and I am a 3V HERMS man. In fact I intend to build my little experimantal system around BIAB equipment and methods because it is cheap, practical and simplistic. TB has said it before the BIAB method/process is not new or revolutionary either it has been done before in a different clothes.

I think what the problem is BIABer, themselves, see it as inferior for some reason and rush to defend it, no one rushes HERMS in the same way. Don't see threads on "HERMS competition wins" do we? (FLAME SUIT ON ) Guys who know me and have met would say I show BIAB brewers the same respect for their knowledge as any other brewer. What we need to remember here is the only difference in BIAB over 3V is the mash! That's it everything else is the same. BIAB is just a process which is really starting to evolve and take off which is the same as HERMS. You've got to remember to my knowledge no commercial brewer actually uses HERMS as a brewing method and it got pood in simular fashion.

But as more and more brewers move to BIAB as a cheap gateway to AG brewing the technical aspects and procedures are getting better and better. From 1st hand experience I can tell you the quality of the beer does not suffer from the expense of the equipment but more from the brewer and his ability as a brewer any day.

Peace! :beerbang:

Chap Chap

 

[crundle]

If you have a love of brewing. It does not matter what method you use. We love the process and constantly making changes as we get to know our own equipment!

Lloydie and I got a place in the Nationals with KT's hopburst! first comp also!

Katie

Top stuff Katie and Lloydie! I plan on making something based on your hopburst very soon, it sounds like a great recipe and obviously the judges felt the same way.

cheers,

Crundle

 

[Bribie G]

There's nothing new about BIAB (sorry Pistol Patch and Thirsty Boy), it has always been very popular in the UK but as a two vessel setup because the hugely popular BruHeat boilers are only 25 L and some sparging is required, so some juggling of vessels is necessary. Many HB supply houses chuck in a free bag if you buy a BruHeat. I used that system in the UK back into the 70s and it's still popular despite many brewers going the Bling road and setting up HERMS systems whatever.

What makes BIAB a more attractive proposition here in Austraila is the widespread availablity of affordable 40L urns. Even better would be a 50 or 60 if such a thing were on the market, but as it is we can do a full volume brew of "normal" strength beers using just the one bit of kit.

 

[Katherine]

Chap Chap

check this out... there not so much Commerical brewers + micro!

Kooinda


I actually don't feel inferior at all! The jokes just get boring! when this thread started BIAB was relatively new so were the brewers that used the method!

I must admit I use our system at its simpliest, Lloydie is more of a techo then me so he is constantly making changes for our benefit!

Katie

thank you Crundle! let me know how it goes! The hops go well together, the passionfruit aroma is fantastic at the end of boil! Even my daughter who hates anything to do with beer when WOW!

 

[RdeVjun]

But as more and more brewers move to BIAB as a cheap gateway to AG brewing the technical aspects and procedures are getting better and better. From 1st hand experience I can tell you the quality of the beer does not suffer from the expense of the equipment but more from the brewer and his ability as a brewer any day.

+ 1 Chap Chap, "cheap gateway"- that's what I meant to say!

And yeah, I saw a reference to the method from the 70s, so it has been around for quite a while, probably much longer than that even. Ref: "Brew Like A Monk", p11 IIRC, referring to another book published in the 70s.

By the sounds though, you'd better make sure Mrs Chap Chap knows you're pinching her pillowcases, otherwise you'll really be in the doghouse! :lol:

 

[Katherine]

I love MY BIG POT and RAMBO burner! urn pttt! :lol:

 

[chappo1970]

Chap Chap

check this out... there not so much Commerical brewers + micro!

Kooinda

Cheers Katie! I did mean commercial brewers as in Megaswill CUB and alike etc. Nice to know Trav's little 4 hectalitre is HERMS though must PM him about it.

To be honest I just don't want to see BIABers unintentially split away from the mainstream for no apparent reason that's all. The way I see it BIAB is All Grain Brewing. FULL STOP. I'll stop hijacking this thread now. Someone want to buy me a beer for lunch?

Chap Chap

 

[Katherine]

Cheers Katie! I did mean commercial brewers as in Megaswill CUB and alike etc. Nice to know Trav's little 4 hectalitre is HERMS though must PM him about it.

To be honest I just don't want to see BIABers unintentially split away from the mainstream for no apparent reason that's all. The way I see it BIAB is All Grain Brewing. FULL STOP. I'll stop hijacking this thread now. Someone want to buy me a beer for lunch?

Chap Chap

I kind of thought you were. Pretty impressive set up hey!

 

[Nick JD]

I've found another great advantage to small scale (<15L pot) BIAB on the stovetop is you get experienced in AG brewing fast.

Little 9L brews are the same as a case of beer (24 stubbies) - so I brew case loads, each one is unique and they only last long enough to get me onto the next recipe while the memory of what went righ/wrong is still fresh in my mind. Will they win contests? IMHO, that is the aim of very few homebrewers.

But they probably would because my beer is the bestest ever, in the world.

 

[AndrewQLD]

I've found another great advantage to small scale (<15L pot) BIAB on the stovetop is you get experienced in AG brewing fast.

Little 9L brews are the same as a case of beer (24 stubbies) - so I brew case loads, each one is unique and they only last long enough to get me onto the next recipe while the memory of what went righ/wrong is still fresh in my mind. Will they win contests? IMHO, that is the aim of very few homebrewers.

But they probably would because my beer is the bestest ever, in the world.

:lol: Damn straight, if the beer you make is not the bestest ever in the world then your doing something wrong.

Well said Nick.

Andrew

 

[PistolPatch]

... just asking what the concerns are from experienced brewers about BIAB.
Is the concern that the temperature control is not as good, the grain/water ratio changes the extraction chemistry, or what are the things that make the more experienced brewers with the full kit say the traditional method is better?

Hi there Bjorn,

In reality, you will find few experienced brewers with the full kit say that traditional is better. The over-whelming majority of experienced brewers were very helpful and enthusiastic in the early days of testing out this method. There was a lot of help from them both on and off forum. Intelligent questions were asked and explored. Some that you and others mentioned are...

1. Temperature Control - This is actually easier than say batch-sparging in an esky as you have an easy heat source to apply.
2. Grain/Water Ratio - A read here under Mash Thickness will tell you this seems to be a bit of a myth. And, as an example of experienced brewers helping out, AndrewQLD tried a full-volume mash in his esky before I even tried a BIAB one.
3. Longevity - I have 2 beers in my kegs now that are 12 months old and 18 months old. One lager and one ale. The lager has had a mild infection fault from the beginning but still managed a bronze medal a few months ago. (Didn't enter the 18 month one as the only reason for entering even one beer was to get free tickets to the exhibitor's tasting ) I also transported a lager from the Gold Coast to Perth over 10 weeks in horrific temperatures a few years back. Unbelievably, it was great :blink: though the ale I transported with it nearly killed me as the keg had become de-pressurised.
4. Low Alcohol and Light Coloured Brews - Once again, plenty of brews done here with no problems at all.
5. Efficiency - Several BIAB brewers have measured their efficiency figures and sent them to me. Average efficiency into the kettle is 82% which is very good.

I think the above were the only concerns and all have been explored.

Any negativity you have heard about BIAB comes from just a few people who I think enjoy an argument which makes a lot of noise/posts. This is annoying because you'll find, on the smallest examination, that their arguments never stood up but have been copied around enough to create a lot of misinformation. For example, Brad from BeerSmith wrote a very good article on BIAB but unfortunately some of the above myths were included in it. Things like this further strengthen the myths created by just a few people. (Brad is aware of this but it will take time for him to re-write the article.)

As for winning competitions, I think the real skill here lies in recipe formulation not the brewing rig. Some brewers develop this skill at a speed that blows me away. Randyrob and BribieG are two examples I can think of and LloydieP/Katie have it as well I suspect. Others take years to develop the skill.

If you don't have this innate knack for recipe formulation then I reckon the best thing you can do is try other brewer's beers and when you find one you love, grab the recipe. That's what I do

I still only have found 3 beers that I love to brew again and again. These recipes were not found from award-winning beers but from beers I drank from other brewers and one from a recipe provided on AHB.

The beers you love are quite likely not to be competition winners so if you find one from another brewer, make sure you grab it. And, if you think it is great but it fails in a competition, it is nothing to worry about. It could well be that if the judges didn't have to taste your beer along with a heap of others, their palate may well have found it truly delicious.

So Bjorn, brew on with confidence!
Pat