BIAB newbie

[geesexar]

gday guys ive just ordered a 50lt biab starter kit from Cheeky Peak brewery. Ive done extract 50lt batches for years with speciality malts and my own hop additions but always wanted to do all grain brews, so biab was a cheap alternative. My first brew will be an american wheat beer recipe pack from CP brewery which comes with the starter kit. Then ive made this recipe for my first OWN brew.an american pale ale
SIERRA AUSTRALIS
Batch size 50lt
9.5ks joe white pale malt
2kg weyermanns carahells
.500g weyermanns carapils
50g columbus 60mins
50g cascade 30mins
70g amarillo 0mins
48 IBU's
OG 1.055
FG 1.014
75% efficency
11.8 EBC
66oC mash temp
This is using brew friend...question is how accurate is brewfriend? Also looking at feedback on this recipe and any help and info would be much appreciated...cheers in advance

 

[contrarian]

Welcome to the slippery slope of BIAB!

I have a 70L pot and while it is possible to squeeze 50L out of it that is really pushing the limits of the system so you need to think about the logistics. If you have 10sih kg of grain dry that will weigh a lot more wet so think about how you are going to lift the bag. There's a ton of different ways to do it but best to think about how before you have to do it.

Another thing about BIAB is that efficiency drops off as you target higher gravities. 1.055 shouldn't be a problem but 50L of it could be, even in terms of fitting all the water and grain into your pot. This can also be a challenge when you are trying to boil. If you are boiling for an hour you will probably have around 60L in the pot when you account for boil off and trub loss so you need to watch it like a hawk to prevent a boil over.

While none of this prevents you making 50L of wort my suggestion would be to do some smaller batches while you get the hang of the process. There's enough to get your head around during your first few brew days without making things any trickier than they need to be. A good batch size depends on whether you are chilling or no chilling. If chilling what's a good size for your fermenter or if no chilling what size are your cubes.

In terms of the recipe there seems to be a massive amount of crystal in there. For an APA around 10% of the total grist would be more common. I have heard that a rule of thumb for hops in APAs and IPAs is to aim for 50% of your IBUs at 60 minutes and the rest towards the end of the boil, not sure how that fits with your additions there but worth some thought.

I would also say don't worry about the numbers too much for the first few brews, record everything so you can work out what is happening but don't stress about it. At the end of the day you will still be making beer

 

[Diesel80]

I BIAB and do double batches in what I make out to be a 74L pot though advertised as an 80L. (Calcs say otherwise)

I do 46L into cubes, 6L of trub is left over in the kettle (dropped out by Whirlfloc and pooled up by whirlpooling). This is allowed for as losses to trub.

Start of boil I have ~61L then I manage it down to ~53/4L at end of boil by checking against a stainless steel ruler and altering the boil vigor.
My beers mash between 8KG and 10KG of grain. Depending on target OG.

I get 75% efficiency now, up from 60% when I started. Just made some tweaks recently that is working out well for me.

You will get a double batch out of that pot, but you might have to hold back some water from the mash and top up during the boil on bigger beers.

That is a shed load of Crystal malt in there. 2.5KG all up is mega. What is the purpose of that much in you mind? Not calling you out, just curious as there may be a better way to achieve what you want that grain to achieve.

Cheers,
D80

 

[geesexar]

cheers for the imput...the vessel is 71lts im making up a frame with pulleys to lift the wet grain out. according to brewfriend 60lt wort volume before boil will give me 51 lts after boil..but not exactly sure

 

[Diesel80]

60lt wort volume before boil will give me 51 lts after boil..but not exactly sure

If you don't boil it too hard.
Aim to boil off about 6L an hour in that batch size. That is 10% and smack bang in the middle of the 5-15% / hr rate I see mentioned. There must be some science to it, so I am sitting in the middle on the fence and it is working well for me so far.

Cheers,
D80

 

[geesexar]

diesel the 2kg of carhells was for flavour and color but maybe i should drop it down...from what ive read 20% was acceptable

 

[Diesel80]

To impart color, a small amount of darker grain could be considered. (Choc, Black, Roasted Barley, Carafa etc)
Depends how sweet you want this beer. It will have some hop hit at 48IBUs so you would want some sweetness for that. But it might be a 'heavy' beer with all that crystal.

I would be more inclined for the first batches to bitter to about 30-35IBU and peg the crystal back to 5-10%. When you get the process nailed you can edge up the crystal to your liking if not there already, as well as adjust the IBUs. Just my opinion but I am not an expert in the field by any means.

If you get it too far wrong, you have 36-40L of it to knock off.

Cheers,
D80

 

[Nurple]

Report back on your first brew day and let us know how you go

I'd be interested how you brew a double compared to myself as I have the same kit from CheekyPeak and have brewed three double batches so far (all no chill into 20L cubes) with two still marinating in there cubes because i've been lazy and not purchased a fermenting fridge.

I'm still playing around and tweaking the gear and I'm new to brewing so will be good to see how you go.

 

[geesexar]

yeah you're probably right diesel..i'll cut back the crystal..and yeah nurple i will report back...just cant wait to get the girl delivered...exciting times!!!!!!..

 

[contrarian]

Unless you hold back some water to top up the boil it is still a hairy boil. My pot is 45cm x 45cm so each cm = about 1.6L, for me to boil 60L it would give me about 5cm at the top of the pot. Not saying it can't be done but it leaves a very small margin for error. Much more of an issue when getting up to the boil than when maintaining a boil as when starting to boil it tends to foam up a bit.

If you want some more colour and malt flavour without using crystal you can always add a percentage of munich or vienna so drop the carahells down to 500g and add 1500g of munich to the recipe.

Not sure about brew friend, I use the BIABacus to build recipes and find that it does a good job.

 

[geesexar]

thanx for the feedback guys

 

[Diesel80]

Unless you hold back some water to top up the boil it is still a hairy boil. My pot is 45cm x 45cm so each cm = about 1.6L, for me to boil 60L it would give me about 5cm at the top of the pot. Not saying it can't be done but it leaves a very small margin for error. Much more of an issue when getting up to the boil than when maintaining a boil as when starting to boil it tends to foam up a bit.

Wayne, as contrarian says, it can be hairy as you get to the boil. Main issues are the foam of proteins that raise to the top when in the 90's, goes particularly ape in the last couple or degrees then starts climbing until the boil is steady, then it settles down.
Might rare up again when first hops are added, but plain sailing after that.

Some ppl skim this protein off, but some brewers and site sponsors say this is not a great idea as some of the proteins in there are important in the finished beer for head retention (not flavor, but presentation, preserving carbonation in the glass). So it won't hurt the flavor but might hurt the look of the beer in the glass in 3-4 weeks time. Your call on that. Others say it improves clarity to skim it? I just leave it.

You can buy a anti foaming spray from the HBS, but I am not sure if that is wank or not. Maybe mash in 4L less water and then boil that off to the side and add it in as you go. If you boil it, you will clear any chlorine out of it, and if it is boiling when added, it won't kill the existing boil or interrupt any timers.

Cheers,
D80

 

[geesexar]

cheers mate...soakin up this info.. can only help

 

[smcc3573]

I am new member to this forum but having been down the BIAB route I am happy to give my 2cents worth. I actually never did extract brewing and went straight to all grain just wanted to start out making beer the way that it was originally produced. I got a 40l kettle and started doing BIAB about a year back. The first couple of batches were ok but nothing spectacular. Drinkable beer but you wouldnt enter it in any competitions. The biggest problems I found with it were.

• Weight of the bag - I do a bit of weight training but trying to hold a steaming hot bag weighing about 15kg letting it drain is not easy. with a big kettle you could weld some rods onto a large colander to be able to let it drain or find a smaller vessel that you can balance your colander over to collect but with a big bag chances are you will have most of it running over the sides and make a mess of your kitchen/brew area
• Efficiency - I was getting poor efficiency, bear in mind you shouldnt be squeezing the bag so even letting it drain so you leave some goodness behind, some people lauter but you would need a device to support your bag over the kettle to be able to do this. You can bump up the grain bill to compensate but that means more weight
• Bursting bags - happened once to me when I wasnt totally concentrated on my mash and was doing a step mash ended up having to try to filter 30l of wort to separate the grain out which wasnt a fun experience. You can get clips to try to suspend the bag above bottom of the pot but I found the weight just pulled it down
• Bags - after one batch your bag will discolour and smell you can wash but I found you cant really get rid of it fully and you dont want to be using harsh detergents on it, there are also little pockets in the corners where the seams are stitched you need to be very sure you clean out those areas otherwise you will have old grain with god knows what sprouting in it

I think BIAB works on smaller batch sizes but I started out doing 5 gallon and found it to be quite difficult to handle, I dont want to bad mouth BIAB as it helped me get a start in all grain its also a time saver as you dont need to spend an hour doing vorlauf/sparge.

I eventually purchased a 40l mash tun and havent looked back, less physically stressing and the time factor doesnt bother me as I really enjoy the process and if it takes an hour or 2 longer then so be it. Plus my beer quality has improved a lot since I moved to this process.

here is a link to Brewing TV (was a great channel now has morphed into Chop and Brew but I watched it for Michael Dawson and Jake mostly)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6WVul6IEKk - here they discuss some of the pros/cons of it


Good luck

 

[Diesel80]

Some good info in there smcc3573
but this

• Efficiency - I was getting poor efficiency, bear in mind you shouldnt be squeezing the bag so even letting it drain so you leave some goodness behind, some people lauter but you would need a device to support your bag over the kettle to be able to do this. You can bump up the grain bill to compensate but that means more weight

is BS.

There is no reason not to squeeze.
Also with the last batch Biab i overshot gravity by 11%, recipe was @70% BHE and i got 81%. i have now setlled on a method that give 74/75%BHE, double batches @ 10kg grain bill.

Only thing squeezing seems to be doing is making my wort look like swamp water in the kettle. But after kettle finings and a fermenter cold crash + time in the keg, you would be hard pressed knowing it was a BIAB beer, in fact you would be guessing.

Cheers,
D80

 

[earle]

Some good info in there smcc3573
but this

is BS.

There is no reason not to squeeze.
Also with the last batch Biab i overshot gravity by 11%, recipe was @70% BHE and i got 81%. i have now setlled on a method that give 74/75%BHE, double batches @ 10kg grain bill.

Only thing squeezing seems to be doing is making my wort look like swamp water in the kettle. But after kettle finings and a fermenter cold crash + time in the keg, you would be hard pressed knowing it was a BIAB beer, in fact you would be guessing.

Cheers,
D80

Agreed, there is no reason not to squeeze. I squeeze for every BIAB brew, use brewbrite and cold crash and beers are fine. Some have scored very well in the QABC comp for the last 3 years, even won the pale ale category with my kolsch. If I could squeeze hard enough to remove tannins, I'd give up on brewing and sit around squeezing lumps of coal to turn them into diamonds.

I am new member to this forum but having been down the BIAB route I am happy to give my 2cents worth. I actually never did extract brewing and went straight to all grain just wanted to start out making beer the way that it was originally produced. I got a 40l kettle and started doing BIAB about a year back. The first couple of batches were ok but nothing spectacular. Drinkable beer but you wouldnt enter it in any competitions. The biggest problems I found with it were.

• Weight of the bag - I do a bit of weight training but trying to hold a steaming hot bag weighing about 15kg letting it drain is not easy. with a big kettle you could weld some rods onto a large colander to be able to let it drain or find a smaller vessel that you can balance your colander over to collect but with a big bag chances are you will have most of it running over the sides and make a mess of your kitchen/brew area
• Efficiency - I was getting poor efficiency, bear in mind you shouldnt be squeezing the bag so even letting it drain so you leave some goodness behind, some people lauter but you would need a device to support your bag over the kettle to be able to do this. You can bump up the grain bill to compensate but that means more weight
• Bursting bags - happened once to me when I wasnt totally concentrated on my mash and was doing a step mash ended up having to try to filter 30l of wort to separate the grain out which wasnt a fun experience. You can get clips to try to suspend the bag above bottom of the pot but I found the weight just pulled it down
• Bags - after one batch your bag will discolour and smell you can wash but I found you cant really get rid of it fully and you dont want to be using harsh detergents on it, there are also little pockets in the corners where the seams are stitched you need to be very sure you clean out those areas otherwise you will have old grain with god knows what sprouting in it

I think BIAB works on smaller batch sizes but I started out doing 5 gallon and found it to be quite difficult to handle, I dont want to bad mouth BIAB as it helped me get a start in all grain its also a time saver as you dont need to spend an hour doing vorlauf/sparge.

I eventually purchased a 40l mash tun and havent looked back, less physically stressing and the time factor doesnt bother me as I really enjoy the process and if it takes an hour or 2 longer then so be it. Plus my beer quality has improved a lot since I moved to this process.

here is a link to Brewing TV (was a great channel now has morphed into Chop and Brew but I watched it for Michael Dawson and Jake mostly)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6WVul6IEKk - here they discuss some of the pros/cons of it


Good luck

Welcome, and its great you have found the method that suits you. I suspect the increase in quality could be largely due to increased experience in AG brewing overall, maybe more that than your change in setup (which coincided at that time). There's plenty of people producing fine brews of single and double batch size using BIAB. In the end every setup has pros and cons, you weigh them up and choose the one you prefer. Some of the cons you list for BIAB are overstated though IMO.

 

[smcc3573]

Some good info in there smcc3573
but this

is BS.

There is no reason not to squeeze.
Also with the last batch Biab i overshot gravity by 11%, recipe was @70% BHE and i got 81%. i have now setlled on a method that give 74/75%BHE, double batches @ 10kg grain bill.

Only thing squeezing seems to be doing is making my wort look like swamp water in the kettle. But after kettle finings and a fermenter cold crash + time in the keg, you would be hard pressed knowing it was a BIAB beer, in fact you would be guessing.

Cheers,
D80

According to what I have heard (and has been repeated by others more knowledgeable than me) See Michael Dawson above, squeezing can release tannins but I cant back that statement up so if it works for you go for it.

 

[SBOB]

According to what I have heard (and has been repeated by others more knowledgeable than me) See Michael Dawson above, squeezing can release tannins but I cant back that statement up so if it works for you go for it.

its one of those 'old wives tales' from when BIAB first started. No actual scientific basis in its reasoning, but gets sprouted as a fact (usually because someone read it posted by someone else who posted it because they read it posted by someone else and so on)

 

[Diesel80]

Excess Heat can extract Tannins:
From Palmers Book -
What is Sparging? Palmer Chap 17
Sparging is the rinsing of the grain bed to extract as much of the sugars from the grain as possible without extracting mouth-puckering tannins from the grain husks. Typically, 1.5 times as much water is used for sparging as for mashing (e.g., 8 lbs. malt at 2 qt./lb. = 4 gallon mash, so 6 gallons of sparge water). The temperature of the sparge water is important. The water should be no more than 170°F, as husk tannins become more soluble above this temperature, depending on wort pH. This could lead to astringency


So can incorrect mash PH result in extraction of Tannins.
Water pH - Palmer Chap 15
You would think that the pH of the water is important but actually it is not. It is the pH of the mash that is important, and that number is dependent on all of the ions we have been discussing. In fact, the ion concentrations are not relevant by themselves and it is not until the water is combined with a specific grain bill that the overall pH is determined, and it is that pH which affects the activity of the mash enzymes and the propensity for the extraction of astringent tannins from the grain husks.

Alternatively mentioned here as well:http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_pH_affects_brewing#Extraction_of_Tannins
(PH and Temp)


Squeezing a bag, does not. (unless either of the above conditions are met).

Cheers,
D80

 

[Bribie G]

its one of those 'old wives tales' from when BIAB first started. No actual scientific basis in its reasoning, but gets sprouted as a fact (usually because someone read it posted by someone else who posted it because they read it posted by someone else and so on)

Yup, the tannins issue is generally a pH thing, and you are extremely unlikely to experience it with BIAB. In fact the people who originally derided BIAB and put some rumours around were mostly 3 Vessel brewers who sparged.
Ironically they were the ones who were in danger of tannin extraction by over sparging.

I squeeze till the mash squeals for mercy, and have won a fair few gongs in various competitions over the years in styles that had to be clean and clear.