Biab Bling Ideas

[Thirsty Boy]

Here's one for you BIAB Ladies.

Shiny bling

Now that is bloody funny.... :lol:

 

[jayse]

I'm all ears.... enlighten me as to the error of my ways. I really want to know.

There really is too much to the whole arguement for me to fully post what I have to say In one post right now, and I'am not even about too even start ATM but I will if you insist have a crack later..

This is why I brought up the arguement hoping to get a few other brewers that have as you said done both ways or even not to at least give some dimension to the whole BIAB is the greatest one sided pat is king thing.

I don't mean for a second to play down you or anyone as a brewer but merely bring into the equation that building a mash tun and brewing as per 'the book' is not so far a disavantage as PP might have you believe.

If you think that people shouldn't head in the direction of BIAB, thats great, fire away with anything and everything that you know is wrong with the method, or where you know that a more traditional system simply does a better job at a particular aspect of the brewing process. But I wouldn't mind perhaps if you qualify just how it is that you know.

The thing has been with the BIAB threads that everyone who thinks its the wrong way to go doesn't bother to even read the threads and possibly just cringe and look away and in that respect people are only getting the pro side of the equation. Now I'am not about to go into the con side right now but I will later. My point of the whole bringing up this argument was to hopefully get some of the other brewers against this method for new brewers to speak up aswell because as is its very one sided pat is god what ever he does must be the way to do things and no one who disagrees bothers to reply because there too busy laughing.

I did warn in my first post I would offend and too look away. but I stick by my guns its time for the whole thing to come head to head and lets bring each side of the arguements together and the pros and cons of each to be saddled up more evenly rather than new brewers coming into these threads and only getting one side because other brewers that don't BIAB simply don't read these threads.

 

[ausdb]

Flemming
To obtain the best efficience on a lauter screen you should only have about 20% of the screen area open :IE 80% solid..Nice looking piece of work though.
Cheers GryphonBrewing

Neville this is actually part of a herms system, that was discussed a long while back under the heading of All In One Brewery.
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...c=11074&hl=
Fleming and his Danish mates have come up with a pretty nifty herms system that uses the one vessel to mash, sparge and then boil in. BIAB is I guess a [Flame suit mode] simplified / poor mans version [/Flame suit mode] that came up as a result of the discussion, without some of the advantages of a herms system as in mash temp control and clear run off but less chance of the dreaded HSA. I guess some people just blow their own trumpets a lot more so this has sort of got lost in the mix.

I do have the bits and pieces to put together an all in one so I will let you know when it is up and running and you can sample the results, I actually like the idea of the all in one for a compact brewery.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Jayse.

Fine, great reasons. I agree with basically all of them.

Your call to bring balance into the argument can do nothing but good to the cause of brewing. I suggest you start.

When you say that there is too much to the argument to go into now, fair enough if you want to include philosophical meanderings. But how hard can it be to list faults that you have found in the method? How many can there be?

How about you start with 3 and work on it from there?

Oh and the Pat is king thing was just rude and uncalled for. If you want your arguments to be taken seriously, perhaps you could keep them objective and avoid personal slurs

 

[warrenlw63]

Yes! No upsetting the BIAB sponsors!!

Warren -

 

[user 384]

building a mash tun and brewing as per 'the book' is not so far a disavantage as (BIABers) might have you believe.

I think Jayse has quite nicely summed it up in this one sentence. There used to be this great mysticism around building a mash/lauter tun, when well meaning enthusiasts believed that we needed to replicate commercial designs. This lead to great debate about sparge arms and how to prevent channeling of the mash. Then through trial and a little error, homebrewers learnt all you needed was an esky and some hose braid.

The central point to BIAB is the simplicity, but now the storyline is turning to introducing bling, like replacing the bag with a SS basket. If you're going down that path, then wouldn't it be easier to just build a mash tun.

You would have noticed that I haven't made any comment on the quality of the beer capable of being made by BIAB and that is because I think this is secondary to the original rationale. No one said at the start of the BIAB threads that it would make better beer, just that it could make good beer with less set-up. But what is so hard about one pot and one esky with a bit of hose braid.

Cheers
MAH

 

[PistolPatch]

Well, well, well.

Firstly thanks for all the links and laughs above. Excellent! Some of them I'm still looking forward to having a proper read of and better laugh at

Unfortunately though one of our moderators has taken the thread off-topic. This thread is not a debating thread jayse. This one here is where you could have done your post. That thread openly asks for criticisms of BIAB.

Jayse I have no idea why anyone could possibly find BIAB a laugh. From the start the process has involved a lot of considered input by long-term brewers. So, unless these very experienced guys are idiots then what is there to laugh at? Since then, those who have had a crack at BIAB have done much to try and find it's limitations however it seems to be able to produce a beer equivalent to traditional brewing. There are also a few brewers now, including myself, who no longer traditionally brew or do both.

We've also gone out of our way to actively encourage comparisons and more recently encourage entering beers into comps. It's all been a pretty sensible and thoughtful progression.

But maybe jayse, from your comments, it is really me that you think is the laughing stock?

This would certainly be more logical than laughing at BIAB. One of my many personality flaws (in some instances it can be a strength) is that I become absorbed in looking at grey areas and turning them into black and white. It's like a hobby for me. In fact I spent 15 years teaching it across the country professionally. You might find it a bit weird and a laugh that someone would spend hours pondering certain problems. Fair enough. But, as I said, for me it is a hobby and I generally find it challenging and enjoyable.

Occassionally someone does write a nice thank you (just as I do when people help me out). This is really appreciated. I don't think many of these thank yous are over the top and certainly are just meant as encouragement. Many of these will be written because I have written several pages in an email or PM or given my phone number to someone who is having probs understanding something which I might know something about. Certainly no one sees me as someone 'up there.' I mean all they have to do is see one of my inebriated posts which sometimes I'm not quick enough to edit. :unsure:

So I might be a bit of a weirdo in your book for finding the process of turning grey areas into black and white and attempting to pass on knowledge that I have distilled from others or occassionally stumbled across myself. Fair enough, some people do find it wierd that other people can enjoy something like that.

But one thing I don't think you can call me is incredible. If you look through my posts, you'll find sound logic or evidence for what advice I give. Where I am unsure of something, I'll say that I'm unsure and ask to be corrected.

Now would it be oK if any further comments along this line were put in the thread I linked above? This thread is reserved for handbags, mice, and sewing machines.

Neville and thirsty - thanks guys.

Catch ya,
Pat (The Emperor Who Must Be Wearing No Clothes)

 

[jayse]

When you say that there is too much to the argument to go into now, fair enough if you want to include philosophical meanderings. But how hard can it be to list faults that you have found in the method? How many can there be?

How about you start with 3 and work on it from there?

The main thing put forward to this is trying to tell people BIAB is the easiest and best way to start your first brew because you only need a kettle and a bag instead of a 3 vessel system as if there is nowhere in between the two.

Say you start with a kettle then the choice is yours should you get a bag made up or a mashtun because either one is all you need.
For using a mash tun you can heat your liquor in your kettle and hold it in your fermentor or any old bucket while your draining the wort into the kettle etc, everyones clearly got a fermentor ready.

So given this it is simply a choice between hey should I sew up a bag or build a mashtun. The arguement is the bag is cheaper and easier but infact you can make a mashtun for pretty much next to nothing. I just scored two 20L mayo buckets from a hotel for nothing and drilled holes in the bottom of one and sat it inside and put a couple dollar tap on the bottom one. So all it costs was a couple dollars.

I think it should be fairly clear which method would be the better and easier of the two.

I'am not trying to say here BIAB is no good at all I'am simply trying say building a mashtun doesn't need to be anymore costly or harder and that you don't need anymore equipment than that.
A mayo bucket with holes drill everywhere could possibly make a good basket for this BIAB idea but using it as a mashtun would be the direction I would advise.

Oh and the Pat is king thing was just rude and uncalled for. If you want your arguments to be taken seriously, perhaps you could keep them objective and avoid personal slurs

Fair enough, I'll leave pats links to royality out of my arguement.

 

[AndrewQLD]

But what is so hard about one pot and one esky with a bit of hose braid.

Cheers
MAH

That is exactly how most brewers started out, a boiler/HLT and an esky, that's only two items.
It seems to me that the BIAB system that was originally started as a ONE pot, SIMPLE system with the goal of encouraging brewers into the all grain arena. It's whole attraction was you didn't need to gather any special equipment to get started.
Now reading through the latest threads it seems all sorts of equipment is needed to help make your brew day easier, Sky hook, termimesh grain bag, mesh buckets, tripod, weldless thermometer ect. Looks like it's getting to be more than a boiler and a bag, in fact that's more equipment than I started grain brewing with.

I am not knocking BIAB, and good on you guys for evolving and improving your systems, but this has changed from an entry level system to encourage new brewers into AG, into one just as complex as a full AG system is anyway.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[jayse]

snipped>
Unfortunately though one of our moderators has taken the thread off-topic. This thread is not a debating thread jayse. This one here is where you could have done your post. That thread openly asks for criticisms of BIAB.

snipped>

Now would it be oK if any further comments along this line were put in the thread I linked above? This thread is reserved for handbags, mice, and sewing machines.

Sorry posted at the same time as you and did think when I was rambling that this arguement should be in the other thread.

EDIT: isn't that thread like 42 pages long? maybe the argument does fit here, ie adding bling to BIAB the arguement being maybe you shouldn't be going down that track.

 

[Sammus]

Hey PistolPatch,

this stuff might be what you are looking for to add bling to biab - I've even referenced you

HERMAN & HERMLET

Have a look at the HERMLET stuff, including the photo album to get the idea.

cheers, Arnie

Isn't the HERMLET pretty simliar to the Braumeister?

I've often thought about building one of them would be cheaper than buying anyway....

S

 

[Vlad the Pale Aler]

Bling

 

[deebee]

Bling

As usual, and in accordance with his signature, Vlad hits a nail on its head.

Anyhoo, I don't read this forum much any more because of the huge volume of chat, backslapping, politics and non-brewing related crap that goes on in here. I can't be bothered. But as far as I'm concerned BIAB is about brewing and has a place on AHB.

Remember the no chill threads - a few brewers trying to do something different to see whether the process could be changed. There was a fair bit of supercilious derision thrown at those who were just trying it out and informing the rest of us. But the idea was thrashed out and it was easy to recognise who had tried it and who just wanted to make a loud noise. In the end, I read the debate and cut an hour off my brew day.

Same with BIAB. If you've got a contribution, make it. If not, be quiet.

DB

Edit: to remove profanity,

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

That is exactly how most brewers started out, a boiler/HLT and an esky, that's only two items.
It seems to me that the BIAB system that was originally started as a ONE pot, SIMPLE system with the goal of encouraging brewers into the all grain arena. It's whole attraction was you didn't need to gather any special equipment to get started.
Now reading through the latest threads it seems all sorts of equipment is needed to help make your brew day easier, Sky hook, termimesh grain bag, mesh buckets, tripod, weldless thermometer ect. Looks like it's getting to be more than a boiler and a bag, in fact that's more equipment than I started grain brewing with.

I am not knocking BIAB, and good on you guys for evolving and improving your systems, but this has changed from an entry level system to encourage new brewers into AG, into one just as complex as a full AG system is anyway.

Cheers
Andrew

Adding bits and pieces to the single-vessel system does not change the validity of the original concept, nor does it enforce any of those additions onto people wanting to try the technique or get their own AG thing happening.

If it did, there is a whole universe of stuff that invalidates the traditional homebrew system as well. We don't need temperature controllers (for mash-tun or refrigerator), refrigerators, wort-chillers, sanitary fittings, March pumps (or even ball-valves - use a syphon!), hop-balls, hop socks, stir-plates, blah, blah, blah.

You can start with absolutely minimal amounts of kit whether you buy mash-tun or curtain material and optionally add bits and pieces as you desire. So, nothing has changed except that we are building on the concept as inventive and inquiring minds are wont to do.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I have to say I kind of agree with some points being made here..

Putting bling on a BIAB system is sort of like putting a V8 into a prius.. kind of defeats the original intentions of the method.

But, having said that, while BIAB's raison d'tre is more or less to be Simple, Cheap, Space/Gear efficient... Hell, if people have brewed a few brews, examined the brewing options available to them and decided that the one they prefer is BIAB, then why not add some fancy bits, or some labour saving devices.

You dont need a pump on a trad system... but lots of people have them, you dont need QDs on every in/outlet but it makes life easier; and you dont need a skyhook to do BIAB, but I think I'm gonna put one up anyway.

You see, even though one of the major benefits of BIAB is that it is indeed Simple, Cheap, Space/Gear efficient, the assumption that it needs to be all of those things, or you should be changing to a trad system, is to assume that the process itself is inferior and should only be accepted as a compromise.

I don't at this point believe that that is the truth.

So bling away my BIAB brothers in arms.. be not ashamed to stick sequins to your bag and a tassel on the drawstring.

Thirsty

 

[Thirsty Boy]

The main thing put forward to this is trying to tell people BIAB is the easiest and best way to start your first brew because you only need a kettle and a bag instead of a 3 vessel system as if there is nowhere in between the two.

Say you start with a kettle then the choice is yours should you get a bag made up or a mashtun because either one is all you need.
For using a mash tun you can heat your liquor in your kettle and hold it in your fermentor or any old bucket while your draining the wort into the kettle etc, everyones clearly got a fermentor ready.

So given this it is simply a choice between hey should I sew up a bag or build a mashtun. The arguement is the bag is cheaper and easier but infact you can make a mashtun for pretty much next to nothing. I just scored two 20L mayo buckets from a hotel for nothing and drilled holes in the bottom of one and sat it inside and put a couple dollar tap on the bottom one. So all it costs was a couple dollars.

I think it should be fairly clear which method would be the better and easier of the two.

I'am not trying to say here BIAB is no good at all I'am simply trying say building a mashtun doesn't need to be anymore costly or harder and that you don't need anymore equipment than that.
A mayo bucket with holes drill everywhere could possibly make a good basket for this BIAB idea but using it as a mashtun would be the direction I would advise.

Jayse, I have replied to this in the main BIAB thread. I really do think that that is where this argument belongs.

MAH - same answer will address your post OK

Thirsty

 

[PistolPatch]

Now reading through the latest threads it seems all sorts of equipment is needed to help make your brew day easier, Sky hook, termimesh grain bag, mesh buckets, tripod, weldless thermometer ect. Looks like it's getting to be more than a boiler and a bag, in fact that's more equipment than I started grain brewing with.

I am not knocking BIAB, and good on you guys for evolving and improving your systems, but this has changed from an entry level system to encourage new brewers into AG, into one just as complex as a full AG system is anyway.

Cheers
Andrew

I'm going to write something in the main BIAB thread as well in a minute re why a bag is simpler and cheaper than a mash tun listing reasons that no one has mentioned above. But, before I do, I have to respond to Andrew's post. Andrew was a big help when we started mucking around with BIAB and even did the first full-volume mash in an esky.

Andrew, BIAB has definitley not done what you are implying above. The guide is the same. A skyhook is a $2.50 coach eye hook and is hardly high tech. Anyone considering using a weldless thermometer has been discouraged from it as the probe interferes with the bag. People just use, as I do, a hand-held thermometer. I don't even use a kettle tap. Also, no one has a termimesh basket or a mesh bucket and you certainly don't need both!

I started this thread simply to see if anyone had some ideas on how to make BIAB a little more elegant. Same reason I started a thread the other day asking if anyone had any clever devices for cleaning.

I was hoping I might get some help on how to make a mesh basket easily and cheaply as it would make cleaning easy (mind you cleaning a bag out is just as easy as cleaning a mash tun out) and I was also hoping someone might have some ideas on a liding track mechanism as ones I looked at like you get on boats were a friggin' fortune.

How this thread has been so misinterpreted and taken off-topic bewilders me a bit.

Fleming (always great to hear form you), Arnie and others who have contributed to the original idea here - thank you. I still want to think on your posts more before getting back to you. Poppa Joe - show us your tripod.

Now to the main BIAB thread - agh!

 

[AndrewQLD]

Andrew, BIAB has definitley not done what you are implying above. The guide is the same. A skyhook is a $2.50 coach eye hook and is hardly high tech. Anyone considering using a weldless thermometer has been discouraged from it as the probe interferes with the bag. People just use, as I do, a hand-held thermometer. I don't even use a kettle tap. Also, no one has a termimesh basket or a mesh bucket and you certainly don't need both!

Hmm, Pat you seem to have misunderstood what I wrote, I didn't imply anything.
I'll try again, I was trying to make an observation and it obviously didn't come across to well.


BIAB was originally designed? as a way for kit/extract brewers to get into/try all grain brewing without having to buy and collect anymore equipment than they would be likely to have on hand or at home. If I am wrong in this then my whole observation becomes pointless.

Andrews Observation:
BIAB brewers are now, having gained more experience/practice, starting to look at tweaking their systems, adding bits and pieces ect, and generally doing what all brewers do to some extent, and improving their equipment. In other words making it more complicated :lol:
And this thread proves that beyond any doubt. "BIAB Bling Ideas"
My comments were merely observations based on bits and pieces I have read in this and other BIAB threads, it was not meant to knock the method or the results.

That is exactly how most brewers started out, a boiler/HLT and an esky, that's only two items.
It seems to me that the BIAB system that was originally started as a ONE pot, SIMPLE system with the goal of encouraging brewers into the all grain arena. It's whole attraction was you didn't need to gather any special equipment to get started.

You chopped this bit out of the top of my quote, which I thought explained what I was thinking pretty well.


Cheers
Andrew

 

[ArnieW]

[Rant mode ON]

It beats me why something so simple raises so many arguments ...

I mean, can't people complicate an idea if they want to?

And does everybody have to see something the same way?

I don't think understanding or misunderstanding the concept of BIAB is really going to make much of a difference once people raise a glass at the end of a brew session.

If Pat wants bling, then why not let him enjoy it? If you personally don't want bling, then don't worry about it, look somewhere else, or choose not to read.

Going for bling on BIAB may be over-complicating, it may not be. But those who dare to invent, dream, experiment and even make mistakes are the ones who will make real progress, or at the very least enjoy the adventure.

Go for it BIABers! Go for it no chillers! Go for it those who don't give a stuff about hot side aeration!

[Rant mode OFF]

DISCLAIMER. I have never done a BIAB brew, although I wonder why not. I have never no-chilled, although I wonder what extra environmental footprint I've caused. I've never encouraged HSA, but who knows, I may well have danced with this devil without even knowing it. But I have made beer, just never inhaled

 

[PistolPatch]

Just had a 'quick' beer with a fellow brewer in Freo - nice kolsch!

Looks like the thread is going to stay off-topic so I might as well go with the flow.

We had a quick yarn whilst having a beer in Freo as to how posts and people are so often mis-interpreted on forums. People often read too fast and obviously, on a brewing forum, often have too many beers. Not me though :blink:

Andrew, sorry if I mis-interpreted your post. As I said to the brewer in Freo, you are one of the brewers I respect most and have always found to be helpful. I'm still mis-interpreting your post though and maybe I mis-worded the thread title. All I'm after is a better bag and a sliding rail. These are the only two things I want and probably shouldn't be called bling.

You are right in your assumptions about BIAB but I reckon you are wrong in how you are seeing the way BIAB is headed. This thread was intended just to be a bit of fun. Nowhere in the BIAB thread will you see active encouragement for people to bling up their BIAB. Occassionally I have actively encouraged ideas on this but they are just off the cuff posts just like this thread was meant to be an off the cuff thread - nothing serious.

The BIAB thread in itself has been a great learning thread for myself and many others thanks to you, other traditional brewers and BIABers themselves. We have explored things like mash outs for example. The stuff that guys posted on this I found really interesting. It's a great educational thread.

So have no fear Andrew, the BIAB thread hasn't changed. I can see how a casual glance at the thread may have lead you to believe that things were going astray but they are not. For example, the only person who even mentioned a built-in probe thermometer was recently and he was immediately advised against it.

I like simplicity and practicality. I also like hearing if anyone else has ideas. Personally I don't think there are many ways to bling up BIAB and personally it is not really something I am very interested in but often great ideas come from the left field such as when James Squire, a virgin brewer, first posed his all in one idea. Fleming, AndrewQld and many others helped make the idea turn into a reality.

So, I just started this thread after a few beers to mainly open a door for others that may be interested in bling. Many people like bling - I'm not really into it unless I see it having a sound logical practicality.

So Andrew, sorry if I have mis-interpreted your post. You know me well enough to realise that I would never do so without consideration. There are a few guys on this forum that I have great respect for and you are one of them.

Most Importantly I could find this thread dissapointing and discouraging and in some ways I do. It's now totally off-topic; it has been somewhat personally insulting; it's had illogical and misleading information put forward; it has defintely for the new guy cast way too many seeds of doubt and that is a real disservice to new brewers.

Despite all this, I'm very happy with this thread. It has revealed to me yet some more people that have the courage to make a difference. There have been several in this thread but I know at least one who specifically does not like attention drawn to himself so I'll draw myself a limit and only mention those posts I can see below as I write.

Thirsty I can't comment on you as you were the guy I mentioned in the para above so deebee and ArnieW, thanks to you and the couple of others who have stood up. Strong people like you make a real difference to this world. I wish there were a lot more of all you guys.

If everyone was like you guys, not only would we brew better beer but we would have no world wars. Your thinking is very good.

I've always seen BIAB as a virgin field of fertile soil. Many people planted in it and several now have harvested a nice yield. Now, as in nature, we see seeds of doubt being cast and unfortunately these require a lot of work to subdue. People assume that the good harvest will win without effort but it doesn't work that way. Just the same as cancer in the human body will win if unchallenged and sometimes even when it isn't. Good things often require concentrated attention. Good to see that there are a few troops who can do that.

Spot ya,
Pat

P.S. Really sorry to the others here that I haven't mentioned