Best Ag Plisener Recipe? Malts, Hops, Yeast Etc?

[Tony]

What about something like this????

=======================================================
A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 25.00 Wort Size (L): 25.00
Total Grain (kg): 6.80
Anticipated OG: 1.051 Plato: 12.66
Anticipated EBC: 7.1
Anticipated IBU: 34.7
Brewhouse Efficiency: 60 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes
Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
4.4 0.30 kg. CaraPilsner France 1.035 20
73.5 5.00 kg. JWM Export Pilsner Australia 1.037 3
22.1 1.50 kg. TF Flaked Maize UK 1.040 0

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.
Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
30.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 2.50 9.8 60 min.
85.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 2.50 24.9 45 min.
25.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 2.50 0.0 0 min.
Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP800 Pilsner Lager

Ahhh the clasic american pils.

A bit different ot a german or behemien

Ilove the corn sweetness of the CAP. It ballances the bitterness

I have made a few bohemien pils and they all sucked. I could never get it right. A lot of people said how hard a good one was to make and they were right.

A german pils is great. lots of pils malt, some carapils and german hops. Ray hit it on the head, no need to repest him.

The CAP is a great but neglected style in the pilsner family. Not enough people make it.

I have a 2,5kg bag of flaked maize waiting for about oktober to brew one for summer. I love to use pils malt, 5% carapils and 20 to 25% maize.

also need cluster hops for bitterness for an authenitc beer.
WLP833 german bock yeast is awsome. its dry but malty enough to lift the corn thinning effect.

balances well.

I have officialy given up on bohemien pils. I will concentrate on the german and CAP. I like the more too

cheers

 

[Malnourished]

I wont say that a 52 rest will be indispensable, or will be urgently necessary, no, thats just a courtesy for my yeast.

I think you are mistaken. It's your beer, but I don't think what you're doing is best practice.

Al Korzonas says(my emphasis and celcius conversions):

So, if you rest at 122F (50C) or 125F (52C) or 127F (53C), you will be producing more
amino acids (which there are more than enough of in an all-malt
mash and excesses can result in other problems like higher alcohols)
and getting thinner beer. If you rest at 135F (57C) or 137F (58C) or 140F (60C), you
will be breaking down more of the large proteins (which, as Charley
correctly pointed out, will end up as break or, even worse, as haze)
into medium-sized proteins which will give you fuller-body and better
head retention.

This really should be put into a FAQ somewhere... it's a commonly
misunderstood relationship regarding protein rest temperatures.
Most recipes I've seen that mention a protein rest have 122F listed
and as you can see, for most recipes, a higher protein rest temp
would be a much better choice.

 

[randyrob]

Wort Preparation: Single infusion mash at 67 c for 90 minutes
Flood sparge of 45 minutes at 77 C

What temps are other single infusioners mashing at??

Cheers Rob.

 

[randyrob]

also need cluster hops for bitterness for an authenitc beer.

I'd love to give that a go Tony, but i'm always too scared it will come out like XXXX

Rob.

 

[Zwickel]

Hello mates,

if you rest at 122F (50C) or 125F (52C) or 127F (53C), you will be producing more
amino acids (which there are more than enough of in an all-malt
mash and excesses can result in other problems like higher alcohols)
and getting thinner beer.

hmmm...thats quite interesting, I wont insist on the 52C rest, but does he make any difference in top or bottom fermenting yeasts? higher alcohols are only a matter of top fermenting yeasts (ales for example), not so with bottom fermenting yeasts at very low temps.
Id like to accentuate, Im doing the proteine rest only with Pilsener beers.
I think, there is a big difference if you do an Ale or a Pilsener.
In some countries beer means automatically is an Ale, in other countries not.
Anyway, Im not an expert in that, its just my hobby and Im willing to take advice if someone has better arguments.
At this point Id like to mention, this is a great forum with a very high level of knowledge and I enjoy very much such kind of diskussions.

Cheers mates :beer:

 

[matti]

hmmm...thats quite interesting, I wont insist on the 52C rest, but does he make any difference in top or bottom fermenting yeasts? higher alcohols are only a matter of top fermenting yeasts (ales for example), not so with bottom fermenting yeasts at very low temps.
Id like to accentuate, Im doing the proteine rest only with Pilsener beers.
I think, there is a big difference if you do an Ale or a Pilsener.
In some countries beer means automatically is an Ale, in other countries not.
Anyway, Im not an expert in that, its just my hobby and Im willing to take advice if someone has better arguments.
At this point Id like to mention, this is a great forum with a very high level of knowledge and I enjoy very much such kind of diskussions.

I am curious too.
I wouldn't think you bother with ales using fully modified malts

Resting at temps around 125-140F (51-60C) will develop medium weight
>proteins by degrading large molecular weight proteins. Again, the
>medium weight proteins are the ones you really want for your beer, the
>largest proteins are otherwise a wasted protein source since they'll
>largely coagulate in the boil and drop out as hot break and as cold
>break.

Once again it's about style of beer.
But which one?
matti

 

[Malnourished]

hmmm...thats quite interesting, I wont insist on the 52C rest, but does he make any difference in top or bottom fermenting yeasts? higher alcohols are only a matter of top fermenting yeasts (ales for example), not so with bottom fermenting yeasts at very low temps.

I'm not sure that you can categorically say that higher alcohols aren't a concern with bottom-fermenting yeasts. I'd love to see some research on the matter (to prove me wrong no doubt) but on a logical level it makes sense to me that bottom-fermenting yeast in a homebrew setup could be under a great deal of stress due to underpitching/oxygenation and the cold temperatures even without an excess of amino acids to deal with. To add to the confusion, Noonan mentions that fusel alcohols are a concern in New Brewing Lager Beer, but Dave Miller specifically says they aren't a concern in Pilsener. If anyone has information on this I would love to hear it.

Id like to accentuate, Im doing the proteine rest only with Pilsener beers.
I think, there is a big difference if you do an Ale or a Pilsener.
In some countries beer means automatically is an Ale, in other countries not.

Why do you say there's a difference between pilsener and ale? Are you talking purely from a fermentation perspective or do you mean there's something about the differing flavour profiles that require different treatment (e.g. you think pilseners are better with less body)?

Anyway I think it's interesting that you make the differentiation between ale and lager yeast and say that what's true for one may not apply to the other. My understanding is that the vast majority of research on beer fermentation related to lager fermentation because that's where all the research funding is. I think Brew Like a Monk says something along these lines. So, if anything, I usually assume that what is known about beer fermentation can be applied to lager fermentation moreso than ale fermentation.

 

[Zwickel]

I'm not sure that you can categorically say that higher alcohols aren't a concern with bottom-fermenting yeasts.

the reason why bottom fermenting yeasts get forced to do theire work at very low temps is just to avoid getting ester and higher alcohols like fusels into the beer.
That yeast would like to work at higher temp as well as the top fermenting yeasts do.
In case that your starter has been produced at high temp and/or youve pitched the yeast at too high temp, you may get some unwanted esters and/or fusels into the beer.
So far its a concern of bottom fermenting yeasts too.
Almost all yeast strains, doesnt matter top or bottom fermenting, are growing best at around 32C, but at this temp too many unwanted stuff will be produced.
To force the pilsener yeasts to work at its lowest possible temp, you need very healthy yeast and a very nutrient medium.
Thats what I want to show up.

....Noonan mentions that fusel alcohols are a concern in New Brewing Lager Beer,

nowadays the beer making industries are searching for solutions to shorten the time between producing and selling it.
That for the fermentation gets forced by higher temps and/or yeast strains are used they do theire work faster, even dry yeast is used at around 18 in some breweries to produce Pilsener beer.

Why do you say there's a difference between pilsener and ale? Are you talking purely from a fermentation perspective or do you mean there's something about the differing flavour profiles that require different treatment (e.g. you think pilseners are better with less body)?

the biggest difference in top to bottom fermenting yeast is the fact, that they have a complete different metabolism.
There are sugars, only the tf yeasts can metabolize, the bf yeasts not.
That produces a completely different fermenting profile, resulting in a completely different flavour as well.

Apologies if I wont go deeper into this matter, my english is not good enough for that.

Cheers :beer: