Berliner Weisse

[spryzie]

Thought I'd mention my little experiment.

30g Ale Malt and 30g Wheat Malt in 550ml water kept roughly around 65 degrees for an hour (very rough - hard to keep such a small volume steady on an electric stovetop).

OG of 1030.

Cooled to about 50 degrees (I believe lactobacillus can survive for a little while up to 65 degrees) and poured into 750ml PET plastic bottle.

Added 1/4 cup of grain. Expelled air and sealed.

Placed in yogurt maker which is about 38 degrees.

Next morning, bottle had swelled. Took a whiff - not unpleasant like my first attempt with a yoghurt culture which smelled like vomit.

Plan on making a 6L test batch with 50/50 Ale Malt/Wheat Malt to 1030 on the weekend. Will inoculate with my lacto starter for 24 hours keeping FV at about 30 degrees (best my heat belt will do - probably better to be closer to 40). Then pitch US05 and drop to 16-18 degrees.

 

[Thefatdoghead]

My BW has been sitting in the glass for about 6 weeks now. Eric Warner is saying to ferment for 4 days or until final gravity then bottle and condition @ 15 degrees for 3 months. Save a few bottles for a year or so to sour up more.

Im not going to bottle so should I just rack it into a keg and let it condition at 15 for a year or just leave it in glass on the yeast?

 

[grimpanda]

Gav80,

Kegging and conditioning at cellar temp would be effectively the same as bottle ageing. I can't imagine sitting it on the yeast for that long would be a good thing. Lactobacillus is anaerobic anyway, so keeping it under CO2 won't slow the souring, and will help stave off acetobacter etc.

Anyway...

I just 'brewed' my first BW today. 50/50 pils & malted wheat and 30g homegrown hallertauer flowers thrown in.

Did a step mash, 50c for 30mins, 63c for 75mins, 68c for 15 mins, 74c for 10 mins.

The mash is cooling down now - when it drops below 50 i'll throw in a handful of uncracked pils and incubate for a couple of days.

Once those lactic critters have done their job I plan on doing a sparge to collect my total volume to go straight into the fermenter.

I'm wondering though, if using the normal 74ºC sparge will significantly reduce the lactic bacteria...? Am I better off just doing a luke-warm sparge, or even a cold one (which would have the bonus of dropping the wort down to pitching temp)?

I plan on fermenting with US-05 and kegging, and letting it be a beer that continues to develop sourness over time.

It almost feels like cheating, making this beer... if it works out well I can see myself doing it again many times in the future.

 

[Thefatdoghead]

Sounds like a plan. Get it off the yeast and condition in the keg. I can always CPBF some bottles if I need to.

Thanks mate.

 

[ricardo]

I'm planning my first Berliner and was after a bit of advice, I have a RIMS systems and after a lot of reading i think i'm going to mash at 65 until conversion and then throw 10% Acid malt to lower pH to about 4.5, turn off the burners and let cool to 43 whilst recirculating. I'm then going to transfer the 10 gallons to the kettle for souring, my questions are

1) If i don't make a starter for the lacto how many vials of the white labs would i need to pitch to get it into the pH 3.5 range? I'm planning on holding at 43 with a temp controller for 2 days.
2) Alternatively i was planning on throwing a big handful of crushed grain in there instead of using the vials, would this release any tannin when i hold for 10 minutes at around 27 for pasteurization?
3) Use a mixture of grain and the vials?

Cheers in advance

 

[Black n Tan]

Have a look at the attached presentation by Jesse Caudal, head microbiologist at Wyeast. it he recommends pitching the lacto a few days before the yeast at 10 million cells/mL. Wyeast packs contain somewhere in the order of 20-30 billion lacto cells, so at the recommended pitch rate is only enough for 2-3L. Even at a itch rate of 5 million cells per mL this is only enough for 4-6L batch. So if you follow their advice, it would make sense to make a starter.

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/presentations/pdf/2012/1616-09%20A%20Perspective%20on%20Brewing%20Weisse-style%20Beer%20-%20Jess%20Caudill%20&%20Jason%20Kahler.pdf

 

[ricardo]

Have a look at the attached presentation by Jesse Caudal, head microbiologist at Wyeast. it he recommends pitching the lacto a few days before the yeast at 10 million cells/mL. Wyeast packs contain somewhere in the order of 20-30 billion lacto cells, so at the recommended pitch rate is only enough for 2-3L. Even at a itch rate of 5 million cells per mL this is only enough for 4-6L batch. So if you follow their advice, it would make sense to make a starter.

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/presentations/pdf/2012/1616-09%20A%20Perspective%20on%20Brewing%20Weisse-style%20Beer%20-%20Jess%20Caudill%20&%20Jason%20Kahler.pdf

Many thanks for that, very useful

Has anybody tried souring by chucking in a hand of crushed grain?i found this article where the author took notes at a lecture on Berliner given by a German brewer and this was his preferred method, sadly it doesn't mention the amount of grain required

http://sourbrewster.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/berliner-weisse-the-old-time-kettle-souring-technique/

 

[spryzie]

See my post above. Unadulterated grains work but make a "starter" rather than ruin a whole batch if it doesn't work.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Went with the wild method - I mashed in 1/4 of the grist, once it got down to room temp, chucked in some raw grains and let sour for 2.5 days.

One the day of total mash in, I mashed in the remaining 3/4 and after an hour, dropped to room temp, put in the now soured 1/4 and let it sour overnight. Nice but not overdone pellicle formed.

Pasteurised it next day (I'm a sook) and chucked in hops. Rehydrated S33 yeast and it was off and trying to climb out of the fermenter in a few hours.

 

[ricardo]

I think i will go the lacto starter route instead of wild.

I found an interesting snippet from Kristen England https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=10195.0 where he states that he makes a starter to 1.025 with 50% glucose and 50% malt extract (2oz\quart).

Would this be a measurement of 1 oz glucose and 1 oz malt in 2 liters of water to get this gravity, does that work out, Ive never used glucose in a starter

 

[Black n Tan]

I think i will go the lacto starter route instead of wild.

I found an interesting snippet from Kristen England https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=10195.0 where he states that he makes a starter to 1.025 with 50% glucose and 50% malt extract (2oz\quart).

Would this be a measurement of 1 oz glucose and 1 oz malt in 2 liters of water to get this gravity, does that work out, Ive never used glucose in a starter

That is what I did although I used cane sugar instead of glucose. The thing is that Wyeast lacto can't metabolise most of the sugars in malt, hence the use of glucose. Some people use apple juice. Jess Caudal responded to an email I sent him and recommends not to stir the starter and monitor the growth of the starter by measuring pH drop.

 

[ricardo]

That is what I did although I used cane sugar instead of glucose. The thing is that Wyeast lacto can't metabolise most of the sugars in malt, hence the use of glucose. Some people use apple juice. Jess Caudal responded to an email I sent him and recommends not to stir the starter and monitor the growth of the starter by measuring pH drop.

Yeah it's weird as Kristen says that it's important to put it on a stir plate, all very confusing as everybody has there own way of doing things with mixed results everywhere

I'm going to go for a 10 gallon batch, any idea on size of starter and how many lacto smack packs for the 3 - 1 ratio

 

[Black n Tan]

Yeah it's weird as Kristen says that it's important to put it on a stir plate, all very confusing as everybody has there own way of doing things with mixed results everywhere

I'm going to go for a 10 gallon batch, any idea on size of starter and how many lacto smack packs for the 3 - 1 ratio

I followed Kristen's advice when I made my BW. I made a 1L starter, 5 days @30C on the stir plate. I pitched the lacto first into a 23L batch and monitored pH daily. It only dropped to pH3.9 after 7 days, not nearly sour enough so I had to add some lactic acid to get it in the right range. That's when I contacted Jess and asked for advice. So next time I will make a larger starter (or step starter) and not stir, to see if that sour more quickly. Lacto doesn't floc like yeast so you may need to give it a few days in the fridge if you wish to just pitch the lacto.

 

[ricardo]

I followed Kristen's advice when I made my BW. I made a 1L starter, 5 days @30C on the stir plate. I pitched the lacto first into a 23L batch and monitored pH daily. It only dropped to pH3.9 after 7 days, not nearly sour enough so I had to add some lactic acid to get it in the right range. That's when I contacted Jess and asked for advice. So next time I will make a larger starter (or step starter) and not stir, to see if that sour more quickly. Lacto doesn't floc like yeast so you may need to give it a few days in the fridge if you wish to just pitch the lacto.

Thanks for the info, interesting stuff, i think i'm going to pitch 4 packs of lacto straight into the 40 liters of wort, cover with cling film and leave for 3 - 4 days at 37 Celsius. So kind of like a massive starter. I'll then do a no boil, transfer to primary and pitch yeast.

Can i ask if you pitched any lacto or yeast at bottling, if so how much?

 

[Black n Tan]

I didn't add any extra lacto or yeast at bottling and it carbed up fine. I did however add Brett to half the bottles: I used a syringe to add 1mL to each pack direct from wyeast pack. I threw away the syringe afterward as I don't want Brett in my brewery. That said the bottle of oatmeal stout I put into Westgate Stout Extravaganza was contaminated with Brett: I think I must have reused a BW bottle containing Brett without sanitising correctly. I hope it is a one off! I much prefer BW with Brett. Go half and half so you know what Brett brings to the table.

 

[ricardo]

I didn't add any extra lacto or yeast at bottling and it carbed up fine. I did however add Brett to half the bottles: I used a syringe to add 1mL to each pack direct from wyeast pack. I threw away the syringe afterward as I don't want Brett in my brewery. That said the bottle of oatmeal stout I put into Westgate Stout Extravaganza was contaminated with Brett: I think I must have reused a BW bottle containing Brett without sanitising correctly. I hope it is a one off! I much prefer BW with Brett. Go half and half so you know what Brett brings to the table.

maybe next time, you haven't exactly sold me on the idea I am splitting in half but will be doing a Florida Weisse with the other half

 

[Dementedchook]

Well, I've been reading over this thread, and the one linked early on, obsessively. So now I have a plan, that doesn't involve making a full size batch first off(here's looking at you horrendous "russian imperial stout") .

Got a ~500ml starter going with DME and a small handful of grain. Let that go for a day, then use a tin of coopers wheat extract to make wort up to about 12L or so, bittered lightly.
Pitch ale yeast and (hopefully sour) starter together and ferment about the 18 degree mark.

Sound good?

 

[vykuza]

Sounds workable. I would ferment at 18 for a week, then ramp the temp up for the lacto (which loves it warmer) to about 22-24 for as long as you can stand to wait.

And taste your starter before pitching. Anything could be eating that DME!

 

[fattox]

A method I've seen for this involves souring the wort with lacto only for about 7-8 hours, then boiling it out and fermenting for a couple weeks. They did it on an episode of Brew Dogs in Season 1. I think they had a pretty sizeable amount of lacto on board though with the souring fermentation. I'll see if I can dig up more info

 

[fattox]

Sounds workable. I would ferment at 18 for a week, then ramp the temp up for the lacto (which loves it warmer) to about 22-24 for as long as you can stand to wait.

And taste your starter before pitching. Anything could be eating that DME!

Nick! Expect an order for a few packs of the Vermont IPA Yeast coming through very shortly! I don't know how you get this but I'll be sure to order it as I need it from you