Berliner Weisse

[JDW81]

I'm about to start out on a sour/funky beer odyssey and will brew a couple of Berliner's to kick off my journey.

I've done lots of reading, however am interested in what experiences people have with the different methods of souring.

I'm not going to bother with sour mashing. I know you can get some amazingly complex results from it, however it's just a bit hit and miss for my liking.

The two methods I'm looking at are fast kettle souring (adding a commercial lacto culture to the cooled, boiled wort in the kettle, souring for 24-48 hours then boiling to kill of the bacteria) and souring prior to primary fermentation with the wyeast lacto, then pitching German Ale yeast. I'd be interested in people's experience who've done this two methods side-by-side and if one gives more depth of flavour than the other.

My other concern is DMS. All my pils containing beers get a 90 minute boil and I've never had a trouble with DMS. Have people who've done a few BWs with only a short boil found DMS to be a issue in the final product?

Will brew a double batch, and ferment one straight, with the other racked onto either blueberries or raspberries and give them time to age in my nice cold garage before summer.

Cheers

JD

 

[stuartf]

Trying to get my head around the whole bw thing but think im keen to try making one some time. I remember having some beers in Berlin that they served with little tubes of juniper or berry flavoured stuff. Barstaff told me it was a beer unique to berlin, cant remember the brewery but is this the same beer? If so I remember it being really good

 

[indica86]

I'v not done a Berliner Weisse nor tasted one...

BUT I have recently made a kettle soured pale ale. The thread is here .
I really enjoyed the result and the beer was super tart and refreshing.

 

[JDW81]

Trying to get my head around the whole bw thing but think im keen to try making one some time. I remember having some beers in Berlin that they served with little tubes of juniper or berry flavoured stuff. Barstaff told me it was a beer unique to berlin, cant remember the brewery but is this the same beer? If so I remember it being really good

Possibly, Berliner is a sour, light ale that is often served with a raspberry or woodruff syrup. Usually made with 70:30 pilsner, wheat malt.

Napoleon dubbed BW the champagne of the north, such was his fondness of the style.

 

[Weizguy]

I have allowed my Berliner wort to sour overnight in the mash tun, on another occasion have also added a sour mash to the wort, and also have made a version with lacto culture from unmashed malt grain/ DME.

Have made every batch to include a 15 minute boil,

IIRC, the batch that was soured overnight in the mash tun had a nasty sour yoghurt/baby puke aroma that made the beer distasteful and almost undrinkable, even after the mash was completed and boiled. Several people on this forum can attest to the beer I put in a NSW case swap back in 2005, perhaps. PostModern was quite vocal and justifiably so.

I also made another in 2006 and won the BoS at the NSW state comp, as well as shared it with the NSW 2006 July case participants. That one had a home-made lacto culture and 2 days with the lacto culture before I added the German ale yeast.
When I make another, I'l pitch a large culture of lacto and sample for appropriate sourness before I add the ale yeast. Best hints I have, apart from adding extra lactic acid, a little at a time, to the finished beer if not sour enough after fermentation.

I like this beer style to be quite sour, to be appropriately refreshing.

 

[JDW81]

I have allowed my Berliner wort to sour overnight in the mash tun, on another occasion have also added a sour mash to the wort, and also have made a version with lacto culture from unmashed malt grain/ DME.

Have made every batch to include a 15 minute boil,

IIRC, the batch that was soured overnight in the mash tun had a nasty sour yoghurt/baby puke aroma that made the beer distasteful and almost undrinkable, even after the mash was completed and boiled. Several people on this forum can attest to the beer I put in a NSW case swap back in 2005, perhaps. PostModern was quite vocal and justifiably so.

I also made another in 2006 and won the BoS at the NSW state comp, as well as shared it with the NSW 2006 July case participants. That one had a home-made lacto culture and 2 days with the lacto culture before I added the German ale yeast.
When I make another, I'l pitch a large culture of lacto and sample for appropriate sourness before I add the ale yeast. Best hints I have, apart from adding extra lactic acid, a little at a time, to the finished beer if not sour enough after fermentation.

I like this beer style to be quite sour, to be appropriately refreshing.

Thanks Les,

I'm leaning towards adding a healthy pitch of a commercial lacto culture (brevis or delbreckii) then adding the ale yeast to finish it off. I'd like to packaged beer to keep ageing and developing it's sourness instead of souring prior to boiling.

I prefer my Berliner's on the sour end of the spectrum as well.

Have you ever had an issue with DMS with the short boil?

Cheers mate,

JD

 

[waggastew]

White labs did some trials in the US on when to add Lacto. They got more sourness when they added the ale yeast first, fermented out, then added Lacto. Sounds anti intuitive (less food for Lacto to eat) but the results were repeatable.

I have done a couple of kettle sours using grain as the Lacto source. Doing this you need to manipulate pH, temp and O2 to get good results. Pure culture is certainly less risky although the commercial cultures aren't cheap

 

[Weizguy]

Thanks Les,

I'm leaning towards adding a healthy pitch of a commercial lacto culture (brevis or delbreckii) then adding the ale yeast to finish it off. I'd like to packaged beer to keep ageing and developing it's sourness instead of souring prior to boiling.

I prefer my Berliner's on the sour end of the spectrum as well.

Have you ever had an issue with DMS with the short boil?

Cheers mate,

JD

No problem with DMS. Sorry, I forgot to include that above.

Stew, do you have a reference for that WhiteLabs study. Hard to argue with the Scientific Method and repeatable results.

 

[waggastew]

No problem with DMS. Sorry, I forgot to include that above.

Stew, do you have a reference for that WhiteLabs study. Hard to argue with the Scientific Method and repeatable results.

Brewing Network Podcast 'Brewing with Style' 6th October 2015 - Berlinner Weisse show, 43min20sec in

Info is relayed by Jamil from a conversation he had with folks at Wyeast (not White Labs). Apparently they got best results with Euro Ale strain for sacc fermentation

 

[huez]

Thanks Les,

I'm leaning towards adding a healthy pitch of a commercial lacto culture (brevis or delbreckii) then adding the ale yeast to finish it off. I'd like to packaged beer to keep ageing and developing it's sourness instead of souring prior to boiling.

I prefer my Berliner's on the sour end of the spectrum as well.

Have you ever had an issue with DMS with the short boil?

Cheers mate,

JD

Hey JD. I've only done two berliners so i'm no expert, but both didn't have any dms issues, and that was with a no boil. Mash, Sparge, hold at 95c for like 10mins and chill. Go with the primary lacto ferment and finish it off with a wlp001 or a german ale strain. My first one didn't quite sour enough so i split the batch and added passionfruit to one and raspberries/blackberries to the other. Honestly some of the best beers i've made.

 

[Black n Tan]

Brewing Network Podcast 'Brewing with Style' 6th October 2015 - Berlinner Weisse show, 43min20sec in

Info is relayed by Jamil from a conversation he had with folks at Wyeast (not White Labs). Apparently they got best results with Euro Ale strain for sacc fermentation

If you go to the link I provided in post 146 you will see the Wyeast results. They concluded pitching the lacto before the yeast gave the best souring.

 

[Dan2]

Thanks B&T - I read that about a year ago but had no luck finding it recently.

JDW - Don't be afraid of using grain to innoculate.
I've tried a Wyeast pure pitch and also grain (BB Ale).
I can't say for certain that one is faster than the other as the first time (with pure pitch) I pitched at mash pH, and every time since I've dosed with lactic acid to get pH down to 4.5-4.8 as suggested somewhere to inhibit the nasties, then added grain.
But the first time took 3 days to reach pH 3.15, every other batch has hit 3.1-3.4 within 12-18 hrs
I'm using 100g uncrushed grain, but I'm sure you could get away with less - not a big cost though.

My key points for safety are;
- lactic acid to inhibit unwanted bacteria. (Also prevents degradation of head forming proteins so you get a nice big fluffy head).
- a couple layers of gladwrap on the wort surface to keep out O2 (after adding grain in a removable tea bag).
- boil (or just pasteurise) to prevent cross contamination and knock off anything else that was on the grain.

Can't say I've noticed DMS, but I have noticed a better depth of flavour since using the grain method.

I'm finishing off with CB's German ale dry yeast.

 

[TheWiggman]

I've got Wyeast PC-3191 Berliner-Weisse Blend on order and will be dipping my toes in my first sour. Heaps of suggestions and alternatives mentioned but I'm guessing I'll do the following -

• Pils/wheat (malted) at 50:50
• Mash hops? I'll find something appropriately Euro in the freezer
• No boil, sparge straight into the fermenter
• Allow to coil then add blend. Wait 3-6 months, bulk prime using flavourless yeast to high carb.

No rapid souring for me thanks, I just want to park it in a corner and do it the old fashioned way. Questions -

1. Why no boil? Some don't, some do. Is it just the traditional method or is there a technical reason for it?
2. Do the type of hops matter and when are they added?
3. What's the usual carb method for bottling?

Looking forward to this, hopefully it won't become an obsession. Ahem.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

I have allowed my Berliner wort to sour overnight in the mash tun, on another occasion have also added a sour mash to the wort, and also have made a version with lacto culture from unmashed malt grain/ DME.

Have made every batch to include a 15 minute boil,

IIRC, the batch that was soured overnight in the mash tun had a nasty sour yoghurt/baby puke aroma that made the beer distasteful and almost undrinkable, even after the mash was completed and boiled. Several people on this forum can attest to the beer I put in a NSW case swap back in 2005, perhaps. PostModern was quite vocal and justifiably so.

I did this a couple of years ago, because all the reading said "do this". Same problem with off-yoghurt/puke smell. It got panned in TasHBC.

It was a drinkable beer - especially from a sour point of view, but the problem was the fact that this aroma kept coming up. It put me off.

Bacchus does a Raspberry Chocolate version and whilst the chocolate isn't my thing, it is a very very well made beer and has given me an idea of how a good base Berliner Weisse could make many beer varieties.

 

[Mardoo]

According to BrewStrong, completely excluding oxygen from the mashtun will avoid this. Cover the mash, blanket of CO2, seal it closed, or else do the sour mash in a keg. I haven't yet tried it myself, but plan to. However they also made the point that adding a lacto culture during ferment is the most dependable way to go.

 

[GalBrew]

If you want a library of info on sour brewing. Check out the Milk the Funk wiki. It is far more comprehensive than anywhere else.

 

[AJ80]

I've got Wyeast PC-3191 Berliner-Weisse Blend on order and will be dipping my toes in my first sour. Heaps of suggestions and alternatives mentioned but I'm guessing I'll do the following -

• Pils/wheat (malted) at 50:50
• Mash hops? I'll find something appropriately Euro in the freezer
• No boil, sparge straight into the fermenter
• Allow to coil then add blend. Wait 3-6 months, bulk prime using flavourless yeast to high carb.

No rapid souring for me thanks, I just want to park it in a corner and do it the old fashioned way. Questions -

• Why no boil? Some don't, some do. Is it just the traditional method or is there a technical reason for it?
• Do the type of hops matter and when are they added?
• What's the usual carb method for bottling?

Looking forward to this, hopefully it won't become an obsession. Ahem.

Nice one mate - it's a slippery slope and no doubt will become an obsession. I just picked up another 3 carbouys (2 normal and one 11L) and will aim to have six different sours bulk aging before the month is out.

I've not tried the 'no boil' BW, but given you're using specific cultures of lacto and ale yeast I'd err on the side of caution and give the wort a 15-30 min boil to sterilise before pitching your mixed culture. This will let your lacto and ale cultures shine without anything else wild getting in the road. If you were souring with the lacto found on malt or doing a spontaneous ferment then maybe no boil...

Regarding hops, the lacto is quite sensitive to IBUs (depending on the strain obviously - I've achieved acidity as high as 18 IBUs). I'd go no more than 10, but 5 would be better. Anything neutral at the start of the boil with nothing late would be the go. I've no experience mash hopping so can't help you there. Your grist of 50/50 pils and malted wheat is spot on.

Feel free to hide this away for 6 months, but it'll probably be ready to bottle within 6 weeks (assuming gravity checks come back stable!). it's the more complex sours (ie Flanders red, lambic, etc) that need the longer aging. This is to allow the more complex mix of bugs (lacto and pedio) and brettanomyces to work their wonder. Bottle as you would a normal clean beer - I've had sours carb up just fine after a year in a carbouy without re-seeding with fresh yeast.

The best resource I can point you towards is American Sour Beers by Michael Tonsmire - he's the guy behind the mad fermentationist blog. Easy to read and he breaks things down into easy to follow instructions.

Good luck and enjoy the ride mate - hope this is helpful.

Edit: the Sour Hour podcasts on the Brewing Network are also excellent

 

[JB]

Nice one mate - it's a slippery slope and no doubt will become an obsession. I just picked up another 3 carbouys (2 normal and one 11L) and will aim to have six different sours bulk aging before the month is out.

I've not tried the 'no boil' BW, but given you're using specific cultures of lacto and ale yeast I'd err on the side of caution and give the wort a 15-30 min boil to sterilise before pitching your mixed culture. This will let your lacto and ale cultures shine without anything else wild getting in the road. If you were souring with the lacto found on malt or doing a spontaneous ferment then maybe no boil...

Regarding hops, the lacto is quite sensitive to IBUs (depending on the strain obviously - I've achieved acidity as high as 18 IBUs). I'd go no more than 10, but 5 would be better. Anything neutral at the start of the boil with nothing late would be the go. I've no experience mash hopping so can't help you there. Your grist of 50/50 pils and malted wheat is spot on.

Feel free to hide this away for 6 months, but it'll probably be ready to bottle within 6 weeks (assuming gravity checks come back stable!). it's the more complex sours (ie Flanders red, lambic, etc) that need the longer aging. This is to allow the more complex mix of bugs (lacto and pedio) and brettanomyces to work their wonder. Bottle as you would a normal clean beer - I've had sours carb up just fine after a year in a carbouy without re-seeding with fresh yeast.

The best resource I can point you towards is American Sour Beers by Michael Tonsmire - he's the guy behind the mad fermentationist blog. Easy to read and he breaks things down into easy to follow instructions.

Good luck and enjoy the ride mate - hope this is helpful.

Edit: the Sour Hour podcasts on the Brewing Network are also excellent

You had me at 'slippery slope' AJ

 

[TheWiggman]

I knocked one up on Friday in my fancy new carboy.

50:50 wheatils. Also threw in 100g of acidulated malt, some MgSO4 and CaSO2 in the mash. 64°C single sacc rest. No mash out, but sparged with 78°C water. Also went for a thin mash with 12l to 3.6kg of grain so I didn't over sparge.
12g of Tettenager for 20 mins with a final volume of around 24l at 1.032. Allowed a few hours to cool, then transferred to the carboy.
Gave it a few more hours until the temp was around 30°C. Pitch the smack pack of 3191 directly and then went to bed.

12h later there were minimal signs of action but there were signs nonetheless. Temps was still a bit high at 28°C according to cheap strap-on probe. I was heading out for the weekend so thought (considering the carboy would have had 3l of head space at most) a blow-off tube was in order. I ran the tube into a 500ml bottle, then put the bottle in a wash tub 'just in case'. Left Saturday at about 9 AM.
Return Sunday at 3 PM and boy oh boy - the tub had about 1.5l of blow-off in it that would have otherwise ruined the blanket I wrapped the carboy in. It must have gone NUTS. Unfortunately the temp was still 25°C despite the cool overnight temps in the laundry, but too late to do anything now. The smell of the blow-off liquid though was top-notch - very 'beery' and light, and if any indication of the final product has me feeling confident this will be a winner.
Now should this be a case swap beer or do I keep it all to myself for a long hot summer?

 

[TheWiggman]

Here's the progress on a single smack pack of the yeast blend. Been at it for 6 weeks now I think. Initial ferment went gangbusters. It took about 3 weeks to actually show any signs of Brett or lacto, but has been slowly bubbling away. Smells damn alluring. Might leave this for Nov-Dec for refreshing summer ales after a hard day's work.