Berliner Weisse starter?

[2much2spend]

I need some advice, I got a wyeast 3191 and I'm wanting to do a Berliner Weisse brew but the yeast is out of date so I'm going to make a starter with a us05 addition.
So my question is with the starter do I have to leave it for a longer period for the sour, tart to develop?
Also does the lacto need to be stepped up (like the yeast) or will it just need more time in the starter and the keg?
I'm looking to do a 50ltr brew.

Appreciate some good input.

 

[Cannibal Smurf]

Why are you adding US-05 to your starter?
If you have an out of date 3191, make a starter from it and see if it fires solo. If it does, pitch it... if it doesn't, then you were only going to end up with US-05 anyway.

 

[2much2spend]

Good point! I haven't had much luck with old packets

 

[hirschb]

The answer is going to depend on how sour you like your Berliners!
Lacto will not die off at nearly the same rate as sacch yeast. If your packet is old, you'll likely have a strong initial lacto activity, followed by a slower sacch fermentation. This should result in a Berliner with greater acidity (I normally do a 100% lacto start, then add sacch when I get down to the desired pH). I like my Berliners very sour, so as long as the packet isn't more than 5-6 months old, I would personally use the packet as is. I think you have three good options:
Moderate/low sour- Make a starter with 5-10 IBU wort. This will inhibit (but not kill) the lacto, and increase your sacch cell-count.
Medium sour- Make a normal starter. You will not have the exact lacto/sacch ratio as Wyeast intended, but this will get you the closest (and this is probably the safest option).
Very sour- Dump the packet in "as is." If you are really worried that the sacch is close to dead, pitch half the packet in the wort, and half in a starter. After the starter is good, decant, & dump into the beer.

 

[cke11y]

I get good results from these berliner blends although some folks say the opposite.

I basically agree with hirschb with some differences.

Dump the packet as normal (although you cannot make 50l with one packet of course... Berliner starters built up to a bigger cell count lose lacto abilities) find a corner of your house you don't care about too much, preferably a small room. Stick an electic heater on full blast right in front of your fermenters and let the room get super hot for 48hrs. Now turn the heaters off. Move your fermenters to a cooler spot. Add a half vial/packet of kolsch yeast after 4 days total if you're really worried about the sacch ability of your blended yeast. Try us05 by all means instead of kolsch... I just think it's cleaner and better suited to low Ibu.

This will get you to a 'normal' sour level for the style. I think?

This method saves starter creation at all. And perhaps you could get away with making 40l off your single packet by adding the kolsch yeast?

 

[mje1980]

I get good results from these berliner blends although some folks say the opposite.
I basically agree with hirschb with some differences.
Dump the packet as normal (although you cannot make 50l with one packet of course... Berliner starters built up to a bigger cell count lose lacto abilities) find a corner of your house you don't care about too much, preferably a small room. Stick an electic heater on full blast right in front of your fermenters and let the room get super hot for 48hrs. Now turn the heaters off. Move your fermenters to a cooler spot. Add a half vial/packet of kolsch yeast after 4 days total if you're really worried about the sacch ability of your blended yeast. Try us05 by all means instead of kolsch... I just think it's cleaner and better suited to low Ibu.
This will get you to a 'normal' sour level for the style. I think?
This method saves starter creation at all. And perhaps you could get away with making 40l off your single packet by adding the kolsch yeast?

The best one I've done was similar to this. Pitched straight lacto for a few days then 1007 German ale ( small starter though at 1.032 might not be needed ). I added cherries to half the batch, awesome.

 

[Dips Me Lid]

Here's a great article on fast souring techniques with lacto.
http://sourbeerblog.com/fast-souring-lactobacillus/

 

[hirschb]

Stick an electic heater on full blast right in front of your fermenters and let the room get super hot for 48hrs.

This method is standard when using initial 100% lacto fermentations. Keep in mind that this method is tailored to lacto strains that do best at ~38-49C. I believe, but am not 100% positive, that Wyeast is using a strain of lacto (probably brevis), that does fine at 27-38C. As long as the fermentor isn't too cold (below 27), I wouldn't worry too much about raising the temp. Ideally, you would monitor the pH, and add additional sacch when ready.
Another potential method is to dump the packet in with no aeration. This should favor lacto production, and make the sacch slower to start. Then, right before adding the additional sacch, churn the fermentor around or use an oxygenation stone to get the wort properly aerated.

 

[hirschb]

And somebody really needs to import this stuff into Australia:
http://www.omegayeast.com/?portfolio=lactobacillus-blend
I'll see what I can do......

 

[GalBrew]

If you are interested in fast souring methods, check out 'milk the funk' on Facebook. A lot of the yanks use lacto capsules (like yakult) from health food stores with great results.

 

[2much2spend]

If you are interested in fast souring methods, check out 'milk the funk' on Facebook. A lot of the yanks use lacto capsules (like yakult) from health food stores with great results.

Well it's not so much that I want a fast lacto, I just want to make sure that it's not like under pitching yeast (off flavors and the sort).
I know when you strain Brett it can go either way with flavour contributions.

 

[Weizguy]

I need some advice, I got a wyeast 3191 and I'm wanting to do a Berliner Weisse brew but the yeast is out of date so I'm going to make a starter with a us05 addition.
So my question is with the starter do I have to leave it for a longer period for the sour, tart to develop?
Also does the lacto need to be stepped up (like the yeast) or will it just need more time in the starter and the keg?
I'm looking to do a 50ltr brew.

Appreciate some good input.

Expecting other than good input?

I have one of those yeasts, and will try it again soon. Could be a waste of time, as all 3 beers I have tasted, made with this yeast blend, taste very strongly of bad, wild yeast phenolics. Am thinking that it's not true to style with those characters.

I have made a few decent Berliners, and find that a sour mash addition is good, or a lacto ferment prior to the main beer yeast should provide enough sourness. If not, you can supplement with lactic acid post-ferment to boost the sourness, but you'll need to give it at least a month for those acid flavours to integrate

 

[GalBrew]

Well it's not so much that I want a fast lacto, I just want to make sure that it's not like under pitching yeast (off flavors and the sort).
I know when you strain Brett it can go either way with flavour contributions.

Either way, it will open your mind to methods of souring that don't get kicked around here very often. There are also plenty of tips, tricks and pics.

 

[Dips Me Lid]

I'll second Milk The Funk, lots of good info in the group and on their wiki page.

I'm kicking up two lacto starters this weekend, one from Jalna Greek yoghurt and one from probiotic capsules, both destined for berlinner's.

 

[2much2spend]

I might do a kettle sour probably got the best control of the lot

 

[Fents]

you're a sour :lol: :chug:

 

[Weizguy]

I'll second Milk The Funk, lots of good info in the group and on their wiki page.

I'm kicking up two lacto starters this weekend, one from Jalna Greek yoghurt and one from probiotic capsules, both destined for berlinner's.

What about one from raw wheat or malt, thrown into a low gravity starter, and kept at about 38°C in a Thermos overnight and cultured up to a higher volume?

 

[Dips Me Lid]

What about one from raw wheat or malt, thrown into a low gravity starter, and kept at about 38°C in a Thermos overnight and cultured up to a higher volume?

That will work, I've seen a couple of different threads on it, I believe the downside is not knowing what strains of Lacto are present on the grain.

From what I've read different strains have different sweet spots temperature wise to maximize clean lactic acid production and minimize off flavour development like butyric acid.

The probiotic capsules I'm using are one strain, Lactobacillus Plantarum, supposedly a good one to work with.
The yoghurt is a blend of Lacto Casei and Lacto Acidophilus.

It'll be an interesting experiment to test them both on a split wort.

 

[GalBrew]

If you are going to kettle sour I would recommend purging as much oxygen from your vessel as possible. Will reduce the chances of 'bad stank' getting in during the souring period.

 

[mje1980]

I might do a kettle sour probably got the best control of the lot

Make very sure you have good temp control. I lost a batch to clostridium. You do NOT want that, it is the most disgusting **** ever. Eat a block of Parmesan then spew it back up smells about right.