All Taste The Same.

[parrja]

There is no doubt that you can make something that tastes better than VB (is that just shit beer watered down?) from a kit...and for less than $10 a carton.

Its a good starting point and I'm sure plenty of people don't feel the need to go past this point. Depends how interesting you find it and how much time you have.

 

[Effect]

To use your own logic...

"New kit brewer just wants advice how to improve his kit/extract brews.

He gets told all kit beers are terrible and no matter what you do it will always be sub-standard. The only way to make good beer at home is to move into all grain or buy fresh wort kits. New brewer perhaps doesn't have the money to spend $50 plus extra for yeast for each brew or likes the convenience of kits.

New brewer gets discouraged and thinks to himself 'too hard' and stops brewing."

You can make good beer with kits. The first few brewers give you the good advice on temperature and yeast. You can make good beer with kits and if one day you move to all grain or can afford Fresh Wort Kits you'll probably make better beer.

EDIT - I am an AG brewer and agree once you are ready to go AG you will find it better. It was just the comment that all kit/extract beer is terrible that I have a problem with. This is not true and has the ability to turn off someone who's just not ready for AG.

+1

Or other new to brewing people come on here and have a read of this thread and get put off.

Beerfingers, this brewing gig is a slippery slope. You only need to give those new to brewing that are wanting a little better quality than what they are making only the slightest of pushes in the right direction. If everything goes right, he will be at a brew day of someone local to him within 12 months. That is when you can hammer home AG like you are doing right now. I agree that AG makes far greater beer than kit beers (I delved straight into AG because I knew kits were shit), however, a brewing jedi takes time to grow and learn before we can move him to the darkside!

:icon_cheers:

Cheers

 

[loikar]

To use your own logic...

"New kit brewer just wants advice how to improve his kit/extract brews.

He gets told all kit beers are terrible and no matter what you do it will always be sub-standard. The only way to make good beer at home is to move into all grain or buy fresh wort kits. New brewer perhaps doesn't have the money to spend $50 plus extra for yeast for each brew or likes the convenience of kits.

New brewer gets discouraged and thinks to himself 'too hard' and stops brewing."

You can make good beer with kits. The first few brewers give you the good advice on temperature and yeast. You can make good beer with kits and if one day you move to all grain or can afford Fresh Wort Kits you'll probably make better beer.

Yep, a slab of VB is what $40? so for $10 more you can have 2.5 cartons of something that's almost as good as it?
Spend $60 on a FWK and he can have 2.5 cartons of something that's waaaaay better?

Look, as I have said, you get a can of unhopped LME, some steeped specialty grains, at least 3 hop additions over a 60min boil, sure, you can make something that is drinkable above VB. so agreed, you CAN make a drinkable beer from extract.

But, if your sitting there, typing this to me, with a tin of Coopers Cerveza and a kilo of some Dex\LDME blend bubbling away in your shed, I don't care how you control your temp, or what yeast you use, it's going to have more twang than Willie Nelson falling into a banjo display.

 

[manticle]

And if you have 30 L of AG wort that has been made by a goose and is fermented at 34 degrees then bottled at 1022, it's going to taste rottener than Gilligan's arse crack.

FWK is a good compromise, I agree but it still needs to be fermented and conditioned properly and the brewer still needs to develop an understanding of how that happens if they want to make good beers, of any kind, in future.

Just making your ingredients good doesn't make your beer good any more than burning a piece of aged porterhouse won't make a good steak dish no matter how free range or well marbled the cow.

 

[BigDaddy]

That's like saying: Soaking a chunk off beef Jerky in water overnight makes a Steak.

This is the funniest thing I have read this week! - Something tells me it won't be the last though.

I agree though, I too am now producing WAY better beers after moving to AG....Looking back, I wonder why I didnt make the move sooner.

 

[loikar]

But why would I bother if I'm well happy with the results I'm having, and it's also cheaper and faster??

It's not cheaper.
I can brew an 25L AG beer for $30.
You might be able to brew an extract for $20

but who's are you going to prefer to drink?

 

[loikar]

And if you have 30 L of AG wort that has been made by a goose and is fermented at 34 degrees then bottled at 1022, it's going to taste rottener than Gilligan's arse crack.

FWK is a good compromise, I agree but it still needs to be fermented and conditioned properly and the brewer still needs to develop an understanding of how that happens if they want to make good beers, of any kind, in future.

Just making your ingredients good doesn't make your beer good any more than burning a piece of aged porterhouse won't make a good steak dish no matter how free range or well marbled the cow.

I think we were running with the "with all things being equal" thing still buddy.

But fair point

 

[manticle]

I may have missed it but the 'all things being equal' caveat was first mentioned by me and was ignored which makes me feel sad and inadequate.

Help the new brewer with gentle introduction to the world of making beer. S/he can make his kits better than they currently are and develop his/her beermaking to whatever level s/he chooses

In both of our opinions a well made AG wort, fermented and conditioned properly will win hands down but there's lots of other factors, especially when just starting out. If a new brewer can experience how much better they can make a kit than thin cidery water then they MAY get a hankering to get on and make something more delicious. For some it's jump in and learn to swim, others like to paddle a bit first.

 

[TmC]

What you need to remember is yeast eats wort (that sugary malt water) and farts co2 and craps alcohol.

I only got my head around how this worked when i watched brewmasters.

In regards to OP - Maybe you can get in touch with one of the members near you to maybe go over and watch them on a brewday? They might be able to point you in the right direction and/or give you some tips.

 

[loikar]

I may have missed it but the 'all things being equal' caveat was first mentioned by me and was ignored which makes me feel sad and inadequate.

Help the new brewer with gentle introduction to the world of making beer. S/he can make his kits better than they currently are and develop his/her beermaking to whatever level s/he chooses

In both of our opinions a well made AG wort, fermented and conditioned properly will win hands down but there's lots of other factors, especially when just starting out. If a new brewer can experience how much better they can make a kit than thin cidery water then they MAY get a hankering to get on and make something more delicious. For some it's jump in and learn to swim, others like to paddle a bit first.

Manticle,

I can rememeber a post (years ago) where your First AG boil was on a wood fired Webber...
With that in mind....how hard was it?
Honestly?

It's not hard, if you can make porridge and keep it warm, you can AG brew.

There's this whole thing around AG brewing that you have to earn it, that you have to start at kits and earn your AG wings.
It's all bullshit. Soooo many AG brewers say "I wish I had moved to AG a long time ago".

You can brew 5 litres at a time on the kitchen stove, it doesn't have to be a 23L volume.
It might be a longer process, but honestly, there's a lot less dicking around with AG as there is with Kits&Bits.

As I said, I have never heard of ANYONE who brewed an all grain beer and said: "bugger this crap, I'm going back to cans of goop".

So, these people who say that their extract brews are great, are wrong. If they brewed an All Grain, the way beer has been made for centuries, the way beer is supposed to be made. they would know what Im on about.

The problem is, these people who brew and drink these extract beers are proud of their efforts and don't like being told that their beer really isn't as good as they keep telling themselves it is.

SO, back to the original Post:

Your beer tastes like shit because it's been processed in a factory like everything else that comes in tins.
Regulating your temp will help it, hitting it with hops will help it, steeping it with specialty grains will help it
But you will never get rid of that twang!

It's not hard to brew an AG beer, you can do it on your kitchen stove albeit 5 or 10 litres at a time.
Throw away your can opener, find a recipe and scale it down to what equipment you have.

If you need help and advice, let me or someone else know who's already AG'ing.

It doesn't have to be a science, it's just beer!
Just make beer, forget about your water chemistry, forget about your whirfloc and campden tablets.
heat some grain in water, hold it at 65 for an hour, drain out the wort, boil that for an hour, throw in some hops at the beginning middle and end, chill it down to 19c and keep it there, throw that in a fermenter, throw in some yeast, leave it for 2 weeks, throw that into a bottle with some sugar, leave that for 2 weeks and drink the shit.

It's not hard!

Regardless of what anyone says; Extract beers are shit compared to an All Grain brew, no matter how much you dress it up.
Your can of coopers pale and your BE1 is like the maggie 2min noodles of brewing, only the noodles taste better.

Cheers,

BeerFingers

 

[manticle]

Took me while to get there, took a lot of reading, making mistakes, asking stupid questions, feeling like a goose, lateral thinking, buying bits of cheaparse equipment in the hope it would serve a purpose etc etc.

I loved the process, just as much as I loved the processes involved with moving from KK with an extra kilo of sugar (genuine mistake) to trying hop teabags, to adding lactose to stouts to steeping grain (uncracked first time) to cracking grain with a rolling pin to realising the heat belt wasn't a good thing, to making extracts and partials in 2 small $3 eskies to making AG on the weber as you remember, to getting a fridge for yeast and hops and cold conditioning, to making a decent 3 V system, to reculturing yeast, to growing hops, to making aged sour/funked beers to making water adjustments to step mashing and decoctions, to whatever odd obsessive point in the process I'm at now.

Process is equally as enjoyable as good beer and even the shit beers I've made have been a learning process that's enabled me to make better beer.

I'm not suggesting you have to earn wings - not at all. Jump into AG straight away if that floats your boat - just don't think that being made from grain is the holy grail. Learn your fundamental processes and make beer whichever way you're comfortable with. If that's AG for your first or second then great. If not - learn the improvements and steps to make further improvements until you either are happy with your beer or you go full mash (and are hopefully happy with your beer).

AG isn't hard, in and of itself, you're right. It's also a shit ton of fun and if I could, I'd see every serious beer brewer make at least one batch and see how happy they were when they cracked the first one.

However good beer is a matter of degrees and good sanitation, good yeast handling practices and good fermentation control are fundamental. In my opinion and experience, while extremely important, good fresh ingredients are only worth using when you know how to use them properly.

My main point though is that even fermenting a fresh wort kit (easiest thing in the world for the best result) badly is probably worse than fermenting an OK kit with adjustments properly.

 

[Synthetase]

My main point though is that even fermenting a fresh wort kit (easiest thing in the world for the best result) badly is probably worse than fermenting an OK kit with adjustments properly.

Especially given the price difference.

 

[loikar]

Especially given the price difference.

Did you read anything at all?
Anything?

 

[drew9242]

Sounds similar to my progression manticle. I have been tempted to try a kit beer again to see how it will turn out, now that i have better fermentation practices. I reckon it would be a interesting exercise, maybe one day.

As for the OP, if you want to make good beer that you mat goes wow that is good. And you are ready to take brewing to the next level with time and dedication. Well i would say just do a bit of reading on the net and jump into the deep end. Nothing beats making beer from scratch and then enjoying it and the end of all your hard work. As beer fingers has said it isn't rocket science. You can make it rocket science but it doesn't need to be.

 

[Nick JD]

....you can do it on your kitchen stove albeit 5 or 10 litres at a time.

Or 20 litres...

 

[Margrethe]

But, if your sitting there, typing this to me, with a tin of Coopers Cerveza and a kilo of some Dex\LDME blend bubbling away in your shed, I don't care how you control your temp, or what yeast you use, it's going to have more twang than Willie Nelson falling into a banjo display.

I won't bore with details, but I disagree with this.

 

[eamonnfoley]

+1 @Margrethe

Listen to the Brew Strong episode regarding extract. Jamil seems to think extract can be pretty good.

 

[Steve@PMF82]

To the OP, dont be put off by any of this, its just people who are passionate about beer.
Some very good info all over this site sometimes yo just have to sift through lots of stuff.

But yeah def get your temp under control - not wild swings, within a couple of degrees, pitch the right amounts of healthy yeast and clean clean clean.
No matter what ingredients you use you will make something pretty good if you pay close attention to these things.

Others make some pretty good points, passionate augments, myself i did one kit and thought this is crap. But then again i am a bit of a make everything from scratch kinda guy, i do like 2 min noodles though. I like growing my own foods too.

I think there is a lot of emphasis put on batch sizes? hmmm , but if you want to try from scratch, beefingers makes some good points, most people already have some pots in their kitchen which would allow them to make some AG wort be it 5 or 10 L who cares, boil it add hops, then ferment in your existing fermented and pitch the right amount of healthy yeast,and keep those temps stable, bottle it after 2 weeks, wait another 3 or 4 weeks and drink away, see if it get you hooked and then you can start the NEVER ENDING process of refinement.

cheers

 

[loikar]

AG isn't hard, in and of itself, you're right. It's also a shit ton of fun and if I could, I'd see every serious beer brewer make at least one batch and see how happy they were when they cracked the first one.

My main point though is that even fermenting a fresh wort kit (easiest thing in the world for the best result) badly is probably worse than fermenting an OK kit with adjustments properly.

Yep, agreed
So regardless if you're AG'ing or K&K the fundamentals of brewing will stay the same blah blah, so lets forget about the fermenting process for a sec because I think everyone agrees if you fk up a ferment, it's going to taste shit no matter where the wort came from, and the same with cleaning and sanitation etc etc. You can learn all that while making FWK and don't have to subject yourself to shitty tins of goop that any retard can add water and sugar to.

So with all things being equal...

This thread has turned into a AG and Extract thread.
And I'm finding that everyone who AG's agrees that they would not go back to extract and agree that AG beers a superior to extract beers. I also find that all the extract brewers who have never brewed an AG are the ones raving on about how good their extracts are.
Am I the only one who's got the brass to say what everyone else thinks?

I, myself, much like you and many others have come up through the tin and kilo of table sugar, and are now AG'ing and playing with adjuncts, yeasts and decoctions etc.

I know, that when I was all extract brewing, I thought my beers were fkn awesome, and I could drink them all day.
The sad truth, in hindsight was that they were not a patch on the beers I'm making now.
And Manticle, as much as I like you, if you were to say that your extracts were as good as or better than your AG's, I would out you as a liar.

Unless you're an Extract brewer, who went AG, and then decided that the extract was better and wen't back...
I'm sorry to tell you, but your extract beers are shit.

So My Main Point Is...

Why even do tins?
Folks,
All Grain is not hard, find the biggest pot in the drawer and have a crack.
Dont post here raving on about how good your tin of beer concentrate and a kilo of Dex is, because it's not, come to terms with that...plain and simple, it's not.
if you don't think im right, make an all grain brew and prove me wrong.

Cheers

BeerFinger

 

[loikar]

I won't bore with details, but I disagree with this.

Are you an all grain brewer?