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All Mittelfrueh Lager

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iralosavic

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The only German noble I have on hand is Hallertau MF, so I'm thinking of trying it out on it's own and just after comments/advice.

90% Pilsner
10% Munich I

Hallertau Mittelfrueh
40 minutes to 22ibu
5 minutes to 24ibu

Slow chilled (cube in fridge). Expected IBU around 28.

BIAB mash for 20L output
In @ 55c, 20 minute rest
66c, 60 minutes
7L decoction to 74c (calculated)
Out @ 76c for 10 minutes

S189 @ 10c

Decoction is for practice and to skip the usual melanoiden. Yeast choice is simply what I already have in the fridge.

Cheers
 

Dazza88

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Plp seem to do 55 for 5 to ten minutes only. Maybe check 20 isnt too long.
 

iralosavic

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I pulled the 20 minutes from this graph.

Link

Can't get the link to work from my iPhone!
 

manticle

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Recipe looks OK but I would be inclined to push that bittering addition a touch to hit 30-35. Even a single bittering addition with a fresh noble hop gives plenty of flavour.

I know Tony also recommends putting the bittering addition in at 45 and leaving late hops right out (with nobles I mean).

As you have the ability to step, I would either add in an extra step, or drop both the amylase rests by at least 2 degrees each. My preferred regime would be 63 for 10, 67 for 40-50, 72 for 10 then mash out. P-rest can drop back to 10 minutes if doing it at 55.

If you don't want to include the extra rest go 64/72 or 64/71.
 

iralosavic

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G'day manticle. I picked up the 45-40 mon bittering process from Tony, as a matter of fact. That being said, he does do late flavour/aroma additions as well, but they may be for the maltier grists only... Either way I'm happy with or without late hopping in a 40 min bittered lager.

So increase the bitterness to more like Pilsner levels, you reckon? Im trying to compensate for extra bitterness from slow chilling (seems to be around 10-15% based on my own comparisons to commercial examples of known IBU). Do you reckon 10% Munich calls for higher than 28ibu to balance properly?

The 74c step is purely the temp that the 7L at 95c will hit when added back in my system. It wasn't intended as a amylase rest. I've been curious about the double steps,but I dont properly understand the effects on flavours (l understand single saccharification only at thus stage). I'd prefer to understand what/why and move onto new techniques when my understanding expands.

Do you have a link to read regarding splitting amYlase rests?

Cheers
 

manticle

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I think the malty character you get with munich and with decoction needs a bit of bitterness to support, especially in a paler beer. If you are using soft water and noble hops, you'll get a lovely soft bitterness and could even push up towards 40. Personal taste of course - you could brew as is and get an idea for next time if you think it needs tweaking.

As for splitting the rests - look up hochkurz on which my regime is based. I just like to add in an extra step because 71-72 is also a glycoprotein rest and the very high end of the alpha rest (and because like all brewers I like to over-complicate things).

I've been using this regime for a while and love the results.

Braukaiser talks about hochkurz and there is a homebrewtalk wiki on it. Also Fix in 'principles of brewing science' talks about the two enzymes and what they do but be warned, alpha and beta are mixed up in that volume.
 

iralosavic

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Thanks Manticle. I understand BA and AA and their different affects on sweetness/dryness, but I would have no idea how many minutes to do in either rest to tweak taste outcomes, nor what difference a degree or two would make.

With single saccharification infusions, you can easily envision the resultant taste at every degree in the 60-70c range. I guess I've got some reading to do!

My water is even softer than Melbournes, so I might follow you're advice and go from there. Cheers
 

iralosavic

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Finally found a working link for the graph that was the basis for my mash schedule.
 

iralosavic

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Manticle I found and read this wiki on the method mentioned. My conclusion is that the beta amalyse rest 61-63 is where all the control over sweet/dryness is - mostly in the duration of the rest. That being said, coming from a mindset that a single infusion at 61-63 would produce a very dry, highly attenuating wort, it makes it difficult to picture the end result being sweet or how exactly to control it as clearly as low = dry, mid = balanced and high = sweet.

Perhaps you could help explain the part I'm not getting?
 

manticle

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Very simply a low end will favour dryness and attenuation. A high end will favour dextrins and mouthfeel (not necessarily sweetness).

By targetting both, you can get a full bodied beer with great mouthfeel that attenuates as well as you would expect.

You can play with the timing of both to get the result you are after. Too long at the low rest will make the high rest less effective but I have had success with a low rest (say 62-63) for 10-30 minutes depending on beer style and expected result and the remainder of the mash at 67-68. Most often I do 10 at 62-63 and 45-50 minutes at 67-68. Full bodied beers that attenuate easily to 1010-1012. Malty and good body with dry finish.

64-67 for single infusion attempts to target both sets easily - I find better results with a step.

Remember that enzymes work at all sorts of temps - they just work better within optimum ranges (and pH ranges etc but temp is what we are talking about here.) alpha will still work at 61 but less well than it will at 69. Vice versa for beta.
 

iralosavic

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Manticle: I don't consume enough beer to justify brewing frequently enough to "experiment" to the extent of basically having a stab in the dark. Is there any chance you could present a few examples of split rests to suit dry, balanced and malty styles? (Aussie Lager, Bohemian Pilsner, ESB). From there I can get an idea that will put my mash in the ballpark.

Also, just wondering. If I can't get German Pilsner malt (Weyerman), how will using the JW Export Pilsner compare in the final taste?


Cheers


Edit: taking a stab at the examples myself.

Dry: 62c for 30 miniutes, 67c for 30minutes
Medium: 63 for 20 minutes, 68 for 40 minutes
Full Body: 63 for 10 minutes, 68 for 50 minutes
 

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