All Grain Or Extract

[T.D.]

I jam-packed my post full of disclaimers as I know this can be a very touchy subject, as vl mentioned. By coming out and saying "AG is always better" and leaving it at that I would have stirred up some brewers who might have interpretted it as bagging out extract. So I just wanted to make it clear that by saying that "AG is better" I didn't necessarily mean that "extract is bad".

 

[user 384]

On a Saturday morning, me and a couple of other AG mates like to hang out at the local HBS and laugh at the kits and extract brewers. We just point at them and make derogatory remarks about their feeble efforts. The kit brewers come in for particular attention, we like to call them "fermentation assistants". It's a hoot!

Cheers
MAH

 

[DrewCarey82]

Thats a lovely bit of fishing, I wonder how many bites you'll get?

 

[wee stu]

I'm keen to challenge any canberra AG'er to a taste testing with a suitably qualified judge with your AG beer and my Grumpies extract brews.....say no more!
Cheers
Steve

P.S. no affilitation blah de bloody blah!

Give it a go then..... Easy
Just enter your grumpy's kit into a comp as an AG beer...

Steve, please do put your beers into competition, but don't put it in as an all grain beer, just put it in. It wouldn't be the first time an enhanced kit brew took out the glory. I've had competitive success with grumpys beers in the past.

I'm involved in one of the national comps ANAWBS, and we actively encourage open competition in 15 of our 17 classes. Whilst we will be asking brewers to describe the method used this year, this will be for our own statistical purposes only. The beers will be judged blindly against strict guidelines in a BJCP sanctioned environment, the judges will not know if a beer is extract or kit based.

The exceptions we have to this are our two restricted classes, one for kit based brews exclusively and one for All Grain beers - The Mash Paddle. We're not being Nazi's here, rather we are responding to requests from the home brewing community to have a couple of classes with specialist bragging rights attached.

 

[goatherder]

I'd like to throw another angle on the "AG is better" argument.

Brewing good beer is primarily about 2 things - sanitation and yeast/fermentation management. These are skills which apply across all brewing types. Brewers will tend to get better at these over time.

Brewers tend to go into kits and extract brewing before they attempt AG. By the time they move to AG, they are getting pretty good at sanitation and fermentation. Could this be part of the reason why some AG brewers seem convinced that AG is better? I think yes, and perhaps the contribution of the AG process to the final product is being overstated.

Ray Daniels tells us that a big proportion (4/7 IIRC) of 2nd round brews in the NHC were extract only. It will be really interesting to see the stats that wee stu mentioned after the results of ANAWBS are out.

 

[Jim_Levet]

Like pretty much everybody else I started at Woolies with the K&K brigade. After venturing into a HBS for a mash demo & sausage sizzle, I was hooked on All Grain.
"K&K is like trying to turn Beef Jerky back into steak" I was told.
Can't wait for the weekend to do it all again.
James

 

[DrewCarey82]

Cant wait to get this XMAS case..... Will be bloody interesting to try these divine like AG brews and see if they live up to the wrap.

 

[hughman666]

yeah from the replies here, i'm seeing a trend that AG is always better than a kit or extract. i can see why there is this perception, i mean who would want spend all that time & money to find out that an extract can taste better?

what goatherder is saying is quite true though. once the basics are mastered and can be applied to any form of brewing, it would be interesting to see how the gap between ag & kits/extracts looks.

the trend that AG is always better only holds true to a point. i have tasted very ordinary beers using both types of brewing - yes you can make a crap AG beer. h34r:

 

[DrewCarey82]

Like pretty much everybody else I started at Woolies with the K&K brigade. After venturing into a HBS for a mash demo & sausage sizzle, I was hooked on All Grain.
"K&K is like trying to turn Beef Jerky back into steak" I was told.
Can't wait for the weekend to do it all again.
James

Pure Arrogance.....

I guarantee that my belgium ale would be the equal of any AG. And its a mere kit and bits brew.

 

[user 384]

Thats a lovely bit of fishing, I wonder how many bites you'll get?

Just pointing out that the AG vs everyone else thread has been done to death and usualy ends ugly. The AG brewers come off either as condescending prats or arrogant bastards and "everyone" else get deffensive. The more reassuring the AG's are that they are not being denegrating, the more denegrated everyone else feels and the more defensive they get. It's just a downward spiral from there. It's certainly not helped by innocent remarks by AG converts.

I say kill the thread, it's not needed.

Cheers
MAH

 

[colinw]

I'd be interested to see them against a 3kg ESB paint tin as well.

I took a few bottles of my 3kg ESB APA to our last club meeting.....put it this way they were blown away! Couldnt believe it was a kit. I could here them all whispering, how did he do that, what did be put in it, what yeast did he use. I even gave one very esteemed member half a glass of the yeasty dregs from the bottom of the bottle. Best smelling APA hes ever smelt and wished he could have had a taste of the upper half of the bottle were his comments - and these people dont lie, they tell you how it is.
Cheers
Steve

So you would recommend the ESB 3kg kits?

Given our dire water situation & restrictions in Brisbane, plus time pressure, I am considering doing a few kits and would like some advice about what will give a good result to my AG trained palate.

 

[colinw]

Like pretty much everybody else I started at Woolies with the K&K brigade. After venturing into a HBS for a mash demo & sausage sizzle, I was hooked on All Grain.
"K&K is like trying to turn Beef Jerky back into steak" I was told.
Can't wait for the weekend to do it all again.
James

Pure Arrogance.....

I guarantee that my belgium ale would be the equal of any AG. And its a mere kit and bits brew.

My best ever strong Belgian was based on a can of unhopped Coopers extra pale extract, with stuffing around and a re-used T-58 yeast cake.

 

[devo]

Thats a lovely bit of fishing, I wonder how many bites you'll get?

Just pointing out that the AG vs everyone else thread has been done to death and usualy ends ugly. The AG brewers come off either as condescending prats or arrogant bastards and "everyone" else get deffensive. The more reassuring the AG's are that they are not being denegrating, the more denegrated everyone else feels and the more defensive they get. It's just a downward spiral from there. It's certainly not helped by innocent remarks by AG converts.

I say kill the thread, it's not needed.

Cheers
MAH

ummm the subject of the thread is AG or Extract not AG vs Extract?

 

[colinw]

We're adult enough to handle a bit of lively discussion here.

 

[DrewCarey82]

Thats a lovely bit of fishing, I wonder how many bites you'll get?

Just pointing out that the AG vs everyone else thread has been done to death and usualy ends ugly. The AG brewers come off either as condescending prats or arrogant bastards and "everyone" else get deffensive. The more reassuring the AG's are that they are not being denegrating, the more denegrated everyone else feels and the more defensive they get. It's just a downward spiral from there. It's certainly not helped by innocent remarks by AG converts.

I say kill the thread, it's not needed.

Cheers
MAH

Agreed though being on the otherside I believe its justified on occassion.

But we should make it policy to do it via PM rather then a general bitchfest.

 

[T.D.]

Pure Arrogance.....

I guarantee that my belgium ale would be the equal of any AG. And its a mere kit and bits brew.

Belgians are potentially the worst beers to use as a yardstick on this issue. They are made with a high proportion of sugar afterall, so the extract vs AG bit is masked by that. A friend of mine once told me that if you infect a strong ale, just call it a belgian!

If you can brew an extract Bohemian Pilsner that is better than the AG equivalent, I'll eat my hat.

The most important thing to remember in this whole discussion is that to make some sort of objective comparison between AG and extract you have to rule out all other factors. So that's fermentation temp, sanitation, yeast type, and just the idiosyncrasies of different brewers and their methods. So its not really possible to say "I tasted an AG beer that was much worse than my kit beers - therefore I conclude that AG is not better" as the AG beer may have been brewed badly or infected or whatever. That is not an objective comparison.

I am also looking forward to the Xmas in July case swap - its been years since I tried a kit beer so it will be interesting to get a refresher on what they are like in a comparative sense.

btw, MAH made an excellent point. These arguments always end badly (hence my tentative initial post) and really solve nothing so I might just pull myself out of this one now...

 

[Steve]

Pure Arrogance.....

I guarantee that my belgium ale would be the equal of any AG. And its a mere kit and bits brew.

Belgians are potentially the worst beers to use as a yardstick on this issue. They are made with a high proportion of sugar afterall, so the extract vs AG bit is masked by that. A friend of mine once told me that if you infect a strong ale, just call it a belgian!

If you can brew an extract Bohemian Pilsner that is better than the AG equivalent, I'll eat my hat.

The most important thing to remember in this whole discussion is that to make some sort of objective comparison between AG and extract you have to rule out all other factors. So that's fermentation temp, sanitation, yeast type, and just the idiosyncrasies of different brewers and their methods. So its not really possible to say "I tasted an AG beer that was much worse than my kit beers - therefore I conclude that AG is not better" as the AG beer may have been brewed badly or infected or whatever. That is not an objective comparison.

I am also looking forward to the Xmas in July case swap - its been years since I tried a kit beer so it will be interesting to get a refresher on what they are like in a comparative sense.

btw, MAH made an excellent point. These arguments always end badly (hence my tentative initial post) and really solve nothing so I might just pull myself out of this one now...

Agree TD - its all about how you brew it - theres so many different factors to take into consideration wether it be kit n bits or AG. I like to perfect what I am currently working on, in this case kits n grumpys kits. I am still perfecting my fermentation assistant technique but have to say its very enjoyable doing this process. And it has been with all the help from this web site (and others), kit brewers and seasoned AG brewers. Like I said earlier - no doubt down the track when I have more time, space, money and inclination I may venture into trying to perfect the perfect AG. Its all good fun and I love it.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Samwise Gamgee]

The Hills Brewers Guild are doing a brew where we are split into three groups (AG, Extract & K&K) and will all be brewing the same brew.

I think the AG recipe was the original then the extract and K&K recipes were based off that to make them all as close as possible for the style. I think the same yeast is being used across all brews?

Then once its all brewed we'll be tasting and discussing the differences between each brew.

By no means is this a perfect experiment to battle out the AG vs Extract argument (due to different groups of people brewing and possible slight differences in temp control etc) but it will be a good chance the discuss the differences in taste/aroma/appearance and so on.

In my personal experiences I've tasted great HB made through Kits/Partials and AG. And i've tasted not so good HB made through Kits/Partials and AG.

With MY brewing, I believe that my AG brews taste substantially better than my kits that I did, but in saying that I only ever did 2 kits and was still learning about temp control, sanitisation blah blah blah. The partial I did though has turned out great! (Now been in a bottle for 12 months - A barley wine)

 

[Steve]

p.s.... and the debate is always good fun!
people do get fired up eh?
Cheers
Steve

 

[Jim_Levet]

Like pretty much everybody else I started at Woolies with the K&K brigade. After venturing into a HBS for a mash demo & sausage sizzle, I was hooked on All Grain.
"K&K is like trying to turn Beef Jerky back into steak" I was told.
Can't wait for the weekend to do it all again.
James

Pure Arrogance.....

I guarantee that my belgium ale would be the equal of any AG. And its a mere kit and bits brew.

Drew, Not arrogant, but very confident.

don't knock it until you have tried it!

James