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Ross
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With due respect Redbeard & Darren, BOC here in Brisbane tell me they fill from exactly the same tank & told me there's no difference between the 2 products. If this is not correct then I would like Witchdoctor of anyone else for that matter to provide literature or a contact within BOC to confirm to the contrary. The cost is not the major factor here - I want to use the 10kg keg that does not come with beergas...
Suggestions from third parties are of no help here, they just confuse the matter more... Facts please... :mellow:
Suggestions from third parties are of no help here, they just confuse the matter more... Facts please... :mellow:
Darren said:
Marketing!
Product differentation through marketing is common practice. When your competitor sells a similar or the exact same product as you, you simply market yours differently to make it appear to be a superior product.
If their CO2 happens to meet food grade regulations, apply the tag and you have a whole new market to sell to. When fire extinguisher guys are looking for CO2 they don't search for food grade, but the beverage industry would. Just whack on a new label and you can much easier sell the same product to two different markets, as you have used the right trigger words to get their attention.
Cheers
MAH
Ross
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Exactly the same price!!!
The guy @ BOC said it was a legacy from the past & something to do with someone like Macdonalds not wanting to see Beergas on their softdrink dispensing bottles...
Only going on what he told me... That's why if someone's got proof to the contrary I want to know before I collect my new bottle...
The guy @ BOC said it was a legacy from the past & something to do with someone like Macdonalds not wanting to see Beergas on their softdrink dispensing bottles...
Only going on what he told me... That's why if someone's got proof to the contrary I want to know before I collect my new bottle...
Ok. To throw another spanner in the ring (is that the saying?)
I just called BOC in Adelaide.
BOC sell three types of CO2. Beer gas, and food grade CO2. They are exactly the same thing and come from the same source. I was told that if industrial grade CO2 was used for any beverage dispensing their liability would be diminished if someone became sick. They said it was not as pure as food grade. It may contain contaminants not compliant to food grade applications.
So Ross, i would make sure you don't buy industrial grade gas.
I just called BOC in Adelaide.
BOC sell three types of CO2. Beer gas, and food grade CO2. They are exactly the same thing and come from the same source. I was told that if industrial grade CO2 was used for any beverage dispensing their liability would be diminished if someone became sick. They said it was not as pure as food grade. It may contain contaminants not compliant to food grade applications.
So Ross, i would make sure you don't buy industrial grade gas.
Hi Darren
I suspect that what the guy said about liability of using industrial CO2 has more to do with it not having the "official" designation of food grade than an actual difference in the products. I went back and looked at their MSDS again.
They sell a lot more that 3 "forms" of CO2. Some of the more easily identifiable are 1) food grade liquid 2) compressed 3) liquid CO2 and 4) medical EP grade.
The food grade liquid and liquid have the exact same minimum purity of 99.5%. This would suggest they have been refined to the same degree. And as the fire extinguisher guys would be buying the liquid CO2, it's probably the same product. So I reckon the food grade tag either comes from handling procedures or is purely a marketing label to help consumers identify a product that meets their needs.
Medical EP grade is 99.8%
The compressed CO2 has varying grades, but interestingly the purity is higher listed as:
CO2 - 99.8%
anaerobic grade - 99.95%
SFC and Coleman - 99.99%
261 - 99.99%
131 - 99.995%
Some other interesting information, is that Cellamix Vin Air used for dispensing wine is Argon. Cellamix 45, 55 and 75 is a CO2/Nitrogen mix, with the number representing the proportion of CO2. They have other products called Food Fresh 30 and 50 which is a CO2/Nitrogen, again the number representing the proportion of CO2.
All these different product lines with minimal difference indicates to me that a lot of this is mainly marketing differentation. As I said before, the guy you spoke to from BOC was probably refering to the technical legalities rather than any real product difference.
I tend to believe the MSDS more than some office guy.
Cheers
MAH
I suspect that what the guy said about liability of using industrial CO2 has more to do with it not having the "official" designation of food grade than an actual difference in the products. I went back and looked at their MSDS again.
They sell a lot more that 3 "forms" of CO2. Some of the more easily identifiable are 1) food grade liquid 2) compressed 3) liquid CO2 and 4) medical EP grade.
The food grade liquid and liquid have the exact same minimum purity of 99.5%. This would suggest they have been refined to the same degree. And as the fire extinguisher guys would be buying the liquid CO2, it's probably the same product. So I reckon the food grade tag either comes from handling procedures or is purely a marketing label to help consumers identify a product that meets their needs.
Medical EP grade is 99.8%
The compressed CO2 has varying grades, but interestingly the purity is higher listed as:
CO2 - 99.8%
anaerobic grade - 99.95%
SFC and Coleman - 99.99%
261 - 99.99%
131 - 99.995%
Some other interesting information, is that Cellamix Vin Air used for dispensing wine is Argon. Cellamix 45, 55 and 75 is a CO2/Nitrogen mix, with the number representing the proportion of CO2. They have other products called Food Fresh 30 and 50 which is a CO2/Nitrogen, again the number representing the proportion of CO2.
All these different product lines with minimal difference indicates to me that a lot of this is mainly marketing differentation. As I said before, the guy you spoke to from BOC was probably refering to the technical legalities rather than any real product difference.
I tend to believe the MSDS more than some office guy.
Cheers
MAH
I found this PDF at AirLiquide's website that talks about liquid CO2 and references foodgrade, chemical usage, and welding on the same document with the same physical properties, with same >99.8% purity. You can check for yourselves at the following link, but the compressed gas document says the same / similar
This page then outlines what is in the different grades of CO2 that airliquide sell - but doesn't reference food grade / beverage grade (I'm not sure if this goes against the PDF or not)
http://www.airliquide.com.au/Pages/Special...bon_dioxide.htm
The link below lists possible contaminants of CO2, and what levels of contaminants the Beverage and Food grade specifications allow. This is a US based company so their food grade classification may differ from ours, but I'm sure it's indicative.
http://www.synetix.com/co2purification/impuritiesinco2.htm
Hopefully this data helps someone work out a conclusion (coz I'm using a fire extinguisher filled at a fire equipment place). I imagine common sense should prevail - the company who supplied my extinguisher knew what I was using it for, so I'm sure they wouldn't use poisonous gas lines on my beer CO2 extinguisher ??!!??
View attachment 03227_20UN2187_20Carbon_20Dioxide__20Liquid_1_.pdf
This page then outlines what is in the different grades of CO2 that airliquide sell - but doesn't reference food grade / beverage grade (I'm not sure if this goes against the PDF or not)
http://www.airliquide.com.au/Pages/Special...bon_dioxide.htm
The link below lists possible contaminants of CO2, and what levels of contaminants the Beverage and Food grade specifications allow. This is a US based company so their food grade classification may differ from ours, but I'm sure it's indicative.
http://www.synetix.com/co2purification/impuritiesinco2.htm
Hopefully this data helps someone work out a conclusion (coz I'm using a fire extinguisher filled at a fire equipment place). I imagine common sense should prevail - the company who supplied my extinguisher knew what I was using it for, so I'm sure they wouldn't use poisonous gas lines on my beer CO2 extinguisher ??!!??
View attachment 03227_20UN2187_20Carbon_20Dioxide__20Liquid_1_.pdf
Boots
It's intersting that the Air Liquide document says that the food industries consume most of the CO2. You would think then as the largest consumer, this would become the minimum standard.
And as you pointed out Air Liquide only have 2 types liquid and compressed, which refer to their state, and has nothing to do with the degree of refinement as both are 99.8%.
I still reckon that the large range of products we see are artifical constructs for market differentation.
Cheers
MAH
It's intersting that the Air Liquide document says that the food industries consume most of the CO2. You would think then as the largest consumer, this would become the minimum standard.
And as you pointed out Air Liquide only have 2 types liquid and compressed, which refer to their state, and has nothing to do with the degree of refinement as both are 99.8%.
I still reckon that the large range of products we see are artifical constructs for market differentation.
Cheers
MAH
.... nah I'm sorry .. I can't believe companies would bend the truth to make an extra couple of % out of "different" products that are actually the same.... 
Don't take my opinion coz I'm not in the gas industry, but it would not be out of the realms of probability that they would be banking (literally) on the confusion, and lack of knowledge around a non-consumer product.
--------
Are all the ingredients in a cigarette manufactured on a food grade production line? Any smokers care to comment :blink:
Don't take my opinion coz I'm not in the gas industry, but it would not be out of the realms of probability that they would be banking (literally) on the confusion, and lack of knowledge around a non-consumer product.
--------
Are all the ingredients in a cigarette manufactured on a food grade production line? Any smokers care to comment :blink:
Boots - i've seen it in dozens (well not dozens) of industries. The same product with different names sold at different prices. It's cheaper often to manufacture to a single standard, and just change the price.
A company i used to work for imported monitors, and (legally) re-branded them to a different brand and charged a premium. One of my customers imports tools, and sells them under different brands at different prices.
A company i used to work for imported monitors, and (legally) re-branded them to a different brand and charged a premium. One of my customers imports tools, and sells them under different brands at different prices.
Boots said:
I reckon your bang on the money Boots. The classic example is Health Insurance. Most insurers sell the same product, but they dress it up to look different. They make it difficult for you as a lone customer to understand the minute differences. You don't have the time to go through all the different brochures and finally settle on the best known "brand". It's refered to as information cost.
Cheers
MAH
Backlane Brewery
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And let's not get started on trying to choose a mobile phone plan...
Can I just say, as someone who doesn't keg, that this discussion has been hugely interesting, not least for the rigorous way people sought out and provided information from reliable sources. Another HB myth bites the dust.
Can I just say, as someone who doesn't keg, that this discussion has been hugely interesting, not least for the rigorous way people sought out and provided information from reliable sources. Another HB myth bites the dust.
RobW
The Little Abbotsford Craftbrewery
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Sublimation - change of a solid substance directly to a vapor without first passing through the liquid state. The term is also used to describe the reverse process of the gas changing directly to the solid again upon cooling. An example of sublimation is seen when iodine, on being heated, changes from a dark solid to a purplish vapor that condenses directly to a crystalline solid upon striking a cool surface. In this way pure crystals of iodine are prepared. Some other substances, e.g., mercuric chloride, can be prepared by sublimation. Solid carbon dioxide, commonly known as dry ice, sublimes at -78.5C (-109.3F). Sublimation also occurs when air saturated with water vapor is suddenly cooled below the freezing point of water. Frost and snowflakes are thus formed by water changing directly from the gaseous to the solid state.
Presumably there is a way to maintain CO2 in the liquid state.
Presumably there is a way to maintain CO2 in the liquid state.
G`day guys
as a newbie and a lurker here i hope this is the right place for this post but it seems to fit the thread
all this talk about gas bottles and extinguishers made me think i have a 5 kg LPG bottle out the back for the BBQ, would this be suitable for CO2? would the air people fill it?
they cost a hell of a lot less than the bottles i`ve been reading about in here
just a thought
as a newbie and a lurker here i hope this is the right place for this post but it seems to fit the thread
all this talk about gas bottles and extinguishers made me think i have a 5 kg LPG bottle out the back for the BBQ, would this be suitable for CO2? would the air people fill it?
they cost a hell of a lot less than the bottles i`ve been reading about in here
just a thought
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