Air-up

[jgriffin]

I'e also looked at the Air-Up bottles, and the numbers just don't add up.

On current usage, i'm using 1.5 bottles per year from air Liquid for a 9KG bottle. That's approx $60 per year in gas plus $100 in rental.

After purchasing a 1.5kg bottle from AIr Liquid, it would mean that i would require 9 refills in the same time at $20 each. So that's $180 per year in refills.

So, Air liquide bottle - $160 per year
Air Up - $180 per yead + $280 purchase........

 

[Ross]

I came close to those figures also.... but using a slightly smaller bottle...

 

[user 384]

Brewers that are using fire extinguishers are risking contamination of their brew & all those that drink it. The reason is that the CO2 is not food grade.

Bollocks! Do a quick search of BOC's Material Safety Data Sheets, number 104 and 032. One is for "Food Grade CO2", the other is "CO2 Bulk". Both report that the CO2 is a minimum of 99.5%.

When purchasing a 1.5Kg (2nd hand) CO2 cylinder be informed that these are imported from the US they are not made to Australian standards

I better ring up my mate in the US and tell him not to use his CO2 bottle because it's not up to Australian Safety standards and could be potentially dangerous. My fire extinguisher was made in China, but has an AS stamp on it. I'm pretty sure that the 1.5kg bottles, even if they were made OS will have an AS stamp.

I've no problem with people coming on to this phorum and promoting their product, but promotion is different to what Whitchdoctor has written. Promotion is about telling the public what your product has to offer, not slagging off your competitors with unsubstantiated rumours and insinuating that they are not reputable. Yeah Air-Up has given us an alternative choice and we're all grateful, but don't try and tell us that its either you or the big companies.

Cheers
MAH

 

[Backlane Brewery]

Witchdoctor, if you DO work for Air Up, or have some other connection to them (which is how your post came across to me, and MAH at least it would seem) you should make it clear in your next post, when you answer the queries/clarify the issues you have raised.

 

[normell]

Does seem a bit strange
Posts: 1
Joined: 14-November 04
Member No.: 679
Long time member, but ONLY one post
:blink: :huh: :blink:
Normell

 

[Bobby]

the food grade thing doesnt really wash with me. most of us live in the city and spend most of our time breathing polluted city air, which would almost certainly not be classed as food grade if you bottled it.
but horses for courses. if it doesnt sit right with you pay the extra money.....

 

[JasonY]

I think a lot of the whole food grade spec is around the handling of the gas and what it comes into contact with. For legal reasons a seller of something that is 'food grade' has to be able to prove they are not using say a transfer line that is also used to top up accetylene also etc.

The guy at BOC mentioned something like this when getting a cylinder but I wasnt paying much attention. Something about knowing what the cylinders have been used for.

All this said if I could find a fire-extinguisher option in Perth I would go for it, I am sure the guys filling these are not also topping up cyanide cylinders

Economics for air up didn't do much for me either, I think the cylinder needs to be about 5kg before it would be worth the effort.

 

[Witchdoctor]

Yes i do work for Air-Up.
I merely posted my comments as advice. I did not state the comments to promote the product.
BOC, Air Liquide and Supagas have stopped selling and filling private cylinders. This information comes from head office from all 3 companies. They want everyone to lease at around $110.00 per year + gas.
On the food grade & industrial grade CO2. BOC and Air Liquide have supplied in writing that the 2 grades of CO2 come from 2 separate manufacturing processes. Food grade is more refined.
If you are happy with adapted equipment from another industries that is your choice. I was merely letting other brewers know there are safer options out there.
If my previous posting has offended anyone i apologize.
If you purchase a 2.3 kg cylinder ($276.00 + freight) you never have to pay dead rent again. $20.00 for a fill which will give you 18 x 19 liter kegs gas and push.
Not all brewers want to take the risk of using a fire extinguisher knowing they are dealing with a high pressure vesicle and consuming it.

 

[Ross]

Well I have it direct from BOC that there is ABSOLUTLY NO DIFFERENCE between their beer gas CO2 & regular grade. Filled both from the same tank... & Air Liquide will let you have a steel gas bottle down south for a fraction of the cost of an aluminium one...
So why not give us guys a real alternative & price your bottles @ a more reasonable level???

 

[Linz]

... Information in, is that extinguisher cyclinders(these will be included) ARE to be tested as per BOC and Air liquide standard of every 5 years come April/May so that ALL pressure gas cylinders will be of the same standard to stop this kind of confusion(testing every 10 years, yeah right, the BBQ bottle maybe).

$45 purchase price???( I feel you are driving at pressure testing will cost $45) the guy in Campbelltown NSW wanted $285 initial purchase. Also you changed tune from post one to post two $45 to $276(and Can we assume + GST??)

Ive only seen ONE instance where a brewer was using the INCORRECT bottle for Co2 and was using a Dry Chemical extinguisher. These are tested to 2 MPa, so 1000+psi( Ive had to tell you MILLIONS of times to stop exaggerating!!!) explosions shouldnt happen(unless you wait 10 years to test the bottle!).

Using an Acetylene bottle from the tip??? you deserve what you get if you do this!!!

As for the 1.5 kg Co2 bottles, always have been wary of importing bottles and gauges from the US, the one from Goliaths(as seen on the webpage 21/2/05 10pm) appear to have a P/T date stamp so it must comply to standards or someone is in ALOT of trouble....and not necessarily(?) Goliaths

Both yours, and the other smaller bottles look similar to the bottle used in the motor sport industry for fixed suppresion systems in race cars. Whilst employed by a fire company we were informed NOT to fill these as they Could be mounted horizontally and the liquid Co2 could freeze in the nozzles if there was water in them from the track.

The difference in the gas you get from BOC et al, and a fire co is that BOC is pressurised gas and fire co gas is LIQUID co2 that boils off to a gas as the bottle is used, hence the need for them to be kept UPRIGHT once the dip tube has been removed.

"The Fire services that will fill Air-Up cylinders are not food grade and are for the 4x4 industry utilizing the complete Air-Up System."

So SOME fire co will fill them ..but for 4x4 use only??

"no one will fill them as they are the wrong colour"

Cant fill the grey ones at a fire co they only take the red ones! and vise versa with the BOC and red bottles

I did not state the comments to promote the product.

How many have you sold to Home brewers ??? how can we verify the information you post??

Not all brewers want to take the risk of using a fire extinguisher knowing they are dealing with a high pressure vesicle

is this like a testicle with gas??? OHHHH VESSEL !!!!!(NOW Im being petty)


Your testimony from a Homebrewer states him: As seen on webpage on 21/2/05 at 10.30pm.



By Anthony Little.

4x4 traveller, motorcyclist, diver, climber, teacher, drinker.
Gold Coast, Australia.

Nothing about a homebrewer!!! just a BUSH BASHER who prolly drinks XXXX


So much wrong and nothing too true!!! just mis-information



thats my post for the year!!!!

 

[Wobbo]

I checked with a Air up supplier in Wollongong (Albion Park) on the weekend and he quoted me $295 for the initial purchase. It seems the price of $276 quoted by Air-Up is only for an empty cylinder! You then need to pay $20 for the gas. The guy said he would give me $1 discount and make it an even $295. Seems like false advertising to suggest initial cost id $276 then sting you for $20 before you walk out the door....
Wobbo

 

[ausdb]

Hi Linz
I agree with everything you said except this bit,

The difference in the gas you get from BOC et al, and a fire co is that BOC is pressurised gas and fire co gas is LIQUID co2 that boils off to a gas as the bottle is used, hence the need for them to be kept UPRIGHT once the dip tube has been removed.

Even the cylinders from BOC have liquid CO in them. You can prove this by looking at the cylinder pressure gauge of your regulator, it will stay constant around 8-900 PSI (at mid 20 temp) for almost the whole time until it is completely empty. Thats because there is liquid CO in the bottle which is slowly boiling away to a gas as it is released.

O and N cylinders are filled with compressed gas only as liquifying them at ambient temps requires insane amounts of pressure!

And I'm still looking for a fire extinguisher, Air up does not seem all that cost effective to me.

HTH
Ausdb

 

[Linz]

I stand corrected on point B)

 

[Thunderlips]

Even the cylinders from BOC have liquid CO in them. You can prove this by looking at the cylinder pressure gauge of your regulator, it will stay constant around 8-900 PSI (at mid 20 temp) for almost the whole time until it is completely empty. Thats because there is liquid CO in the bottle which is slowly boiling away to a gas as it is released.

I'm on my first gas bottle and didn't realise this. It's sitting on around the numbers you mention, 8-900 PSI.
So I could be in the middle of carbonating a keg and all of a sudden it will run out of CO2? I was hoping that gauge would give me some kind of warning.

 

[normell]

... Information in, is that extinguisher cyclinders(these will be included) ARE to be tested as per BOC and Air liquide standard of every 5 years come April/May so that ALL pressure gas cylinders will be of the same standard to stop this kind of confusion(testing every 10 years, yeah right, the BBQ bottle maybe).

$45 purchase price???( I feel you are driving at pressure testing will cost $45) the guy in Campbelltown NSW wanted $285 initial purchase. Also you changed tune from post one to post two $45 to $276(and Can we assume + GST??)

Ive only seen ONE instance where a brewer was using the INCORRECT bottle for Co2 and was using a Dry Chemical extinguisher. These are tested to 2 MPa, so 1000+psi( Ive had to tell you MILLIONS of times to stop exaggerating!!!) explosions shouldnt happen(unless you wait 10 years to test the bottle!).

Using an Acetylene bottle from the tip??? you deserve what you get if you do this!!!

As for the 1.5 kg Co2 bottles, always have been wary of importing bottles and gauges from the US, the one from Goliaths(as seen on the webpage 21/2/05 10pm) appear to have a P/T date stamp so it must comply to standards or someone is in ALOT of trouble....and not necessarily(?) Goliaths

Both yours, and the other smaller bottles look similar to the bottle used in the motor sport industry for fixed suppresion systems in race cars. Whilst employed by a fire company we were informed NOT to fill these as they Could be mounted horizontally and the liquid Co2 could freeze in the nozzles if there was water in them from the track.

The difference in the gas you get from BOC et al, and a fire co is that BOC is pressurised gas and fire co gas is LIQUID co2 that boils off to a gas as the bottle is used, hence the need for them to be kept UPRIGHT once the dip tube has been removed.

"The Fire services that will fill Air-Up cylinders are not food grade and are for the 4x4 industry utilizing the complete Air-Up System."

So SOME fire co will fill them ..but for 4x4 use only??

"no one will fill them as they are the wrong colour"

Cant fill the grey ones at a fire co they only take the red ones! and vise versa with the BOC and red bottles

I did not state the comments to promote the product.

How many have you sold to Home brewers ??? how can we verify the information you post??

Not all brewers want to take the risk of using a fire extinguisher knowing they are dealing with a high pressure vesicle

is this like a testicle with gas??? OHHHH VESSEL !!!!!(NOW Im being petty)


Your testimony from a Homebrewer states him: As seen on webpage on 21/2/05 at 10.30pm.



By Anthony Little.

4x4 traveller, motorcyclist, diver, climber, teacher, drinker.
Gold Coast, Australia.

Nothing about a homebrewer!!! just a BUSH BASHER who prolly drinks XXXX


So much wrong and nothing too true!!! just mis-information



thats my post for the year!!!!

[post="46297"][/post]​

Hi Linz
Before you get shot down in flames, re read the testimony from a Homebrewer states him: As seen on webpage on 21/2/05 at 10.30pm.
By Anthony Little.

4x4 traveller, motorcyclist, diver, climber, teacher, drinker.
Gold Coast, Australia.


Ive been home-brewing for about ten years

and Wobbo
go back and tell him
If you purchase one of our cylinders you receive it full and the refills are only $20

I agree that this Witchdoctor seems to be full of it but, dont give him ammo. to shoot us down
Normell

 

[user 384]

On the food grade & industrial grade CO2. BOC and Air Liquide have supplied in writing that the 2 grades of CO2 come from 2 separate manufacturing processes.

Then prove it! PDF the written documentation that you have and post it to this site for all to see. Then as home brewers we can either accept the documentation you've provided or take a copy to BOC and Air Liquide and have it verified.

Cheers
MAH

 

[Ross]

Hear... hear...

This week I'm switching from beergas to regular CO2 as I wish to upgrade from a 6kg bottle to a 10kg one & BOC don't supply the beergas in 10kg bottles....
BOC tell me there is absolutly NO difference - So if you have proof otherwise Witchdoctor, I would appreciate your prompt response - PLEASE....

 

[redbeard]

On current usage, i'm using 1.5 bottles per year from air Liquid for a 9KG bottle. That's approx $60 per year in gas plus $100 in rental.

After purchasing a 1.5kg bottle from AIr Liquid, it would mean that i would require 9 refills in the same time at $20 each. So that's $180 per year in refills.

So, Air liquide bottle - $160 per year
Air Up - $180 per yead + $280 purchase........

i just rang Air liquide in sydney & was quoted $110 rental (ali or steel) + $28 to fill.
air-up is a 2.3kg cylinder. thus for 13.5 kg of gas/yr thats 1.5x 9kg or 6x2.3kg

                      yr1                        yr2      yr3

Air liquide  $110+44=154      154     154

Air-up          $280+120=400   120      120

(sorry, used this code thing to stop the unformatiing...)
so u break even after 7 yrs with air-up for 13.5kg. using 5kg / yr, the payback for air-up is about 3 yrs.

if u dont like air-up's pricing, stick with boc/air liquide/supagas. but dont complain about pricing, if your not prepared to support new competitors to the market.

rumour is some pub gas suppliers will give cheap rental on steel cylinders, thou have yet to find one in sydney buti havent asked every single one

as to food grade / bulk, a workmate with physics lab experience suggests they come from same factory but the food grade is filtered more, to remove noxious elements like benzine, which are irrelevant with a fire extinguisher. only boc / air liquide could give definitive statement.

cheers

 

[Darren]

Hey guys,
I suspect the reason they supply "food grade" gas is because it DOES comply to food grade regulations. Sure it may all come from the same tank most of the time. You can be sure that some CO2 will not meet the food grade requirements (such as the first 100 or so litres in a batch as impurities are purged). Food grade will also apply to all lines and connectors used for filling. Non-food grade bottles will not be allowed to be filled with food grade lines/tanks. There could be the possibility of "stuff" on the nozzles of non-food grade containers.
I hate using BOC but I figure my liver gets enough of a beating as it is without adding any other toxins

 

[user 384]

I'm still not convinced that the "food grade" CO2 is any more refined, as I posted earlier BOC's own Material Safety Data Sheet reports that their food grade product has the same minimum purity level as the bulk product.

I do however think Darren is probably right in that it has to do with handling procedures. The food grade CO2 is probably guaranteed to be handled with other food grade hoses, connectors, bottles etc.

Does anyone know a fire extinguisher re-filler who could confirm if they use the same equipment to refill the CO2 extinguisher with other more harmfull chemicals?

Cheers
MAH