Adjusting Rainwater

[bigandhairy]

Hi guys
I'd like to start using rainwater for my brewing. I have been using townwater but i have to cart over to the shed/brewery, its a fair way from the tap to the shed and would rather not just run a hose. I can put a small tank on the shed for brewing purposes so i am trying to get my head around brewing chemistry. I'm not the smartest tool in the shed so therefore very easily confused. I normally brew ales (prob half and half uk and usa and toss in a few aussies) so as i understand it i should add; 1tablespoon gypsum, 5g magnesium sulphate, pinch of salt, some citric acid. This is apparently some form of burtonising the water.
A few questions -

1. Would i make this same addition for making a stout?
2. Is the citric acid amount just a 'pinch'?
3. Is the pinch of salt just table salt.

Thanks
bah

 

[warra48]

Why not spend a measly few dollars and invest in BeerSmith software?

The latest version of BeerSmith's water tool works out all your additions for you. All you need do is to input your source water as distilled or rainwater, then select your target source, based on the type of brew you do, and bingo, it suggests all your additions for you.

Anyway, for a total of 40 litres of rainwater, with a target of Dublin water, this is what it suggests you add:

1.2 gr Gypsum CaSO4
3.7 gr Epsom Salt MgSO4
1.4 gr Calcium Chloride CaCl
2.6 gr Baking Soda NaHCO3
10.1 gr Chalk CaCO3

I never use citric acid, nor any other acid additions in my brews, so can't answer that question.
If you use salt (NcCl), make sure it is non iodised, not iodised table salt.

 

[bigandhairy]

Why not spend a measly few dollars and invest in BeerSmith software?

The latest version of BeerSmith's water tool works out all your additions for you. All you need do is to input your source water as distilled or rainwater, then select your target source, based on the type of brew you do, and bingo, it suggests all your additions for you.

Anyway, for a total of 40 litres of rainwater, with a target of Dublin water, this is what it suggests you add:

1.2 gr Gypsum CaSO4
3.7 gr Epsom Salt MgSO4
1.4 gr Calcium Chloride CaCl
2.6 gr Baking Soda NaHCO3
10.1 gr Chalk CaCO3

I never use citric acid, nor any other acid additions in my brews, so can't answer that question.
If you use salt (NcCl), make sure it is non iodised, not iodised table salt.

Cheers warra

I have only used brewmate since i started ag and never paid any attention to beersmith discussions. However i might look into it now that water chemistry is a consideration. Thanks for the reccomendation on the additions and quantities.

Regards
bah

 

[Ronin]

Cheers warra

I have only used brewmate since i started ag and never paid any attention to beersmith discussions. However i might look into it now that water chemistry is a consideration. Thanks for the reccomendation on the additions and quantities.

Regards
bah

Be careful with chalk additions, chalk is not very soluble at all in water so if you absolutely must add carbonates, then either add the chalk to the mash or use bicarb in the water instead.

That being said from my understanding many breweries go to a lot of trouble to remove alkalinity (carbonates) from their mash liquor. Carbonates do very little besides increasing the mash pH which you then have to lower with acid, so why add it?

Simpler to leave it out and then skip the acid addition as well. A stout should have more than enough dark malts to get the pH of the mash to the 5.2-5.5 area if you don't add carbonates or acids.

Most texts state that sulphates (gypsum) and dark malts don't go too well together (just stating textbooks here as I've never added gypsum to a stout). For a stout I'd be adding about 0.3-0.5g/L CaCl2 to get the right amount of calcium into the wort. I'd only be adding some bicarb to the adjust the mash pH if it got way too low. That's it.

James

 

[argon]

check out the free ezwater calculator for your water additions... i use this for water and beersmith for everything else. Very good tool

 

[bigandhairy]

Thanks guys, will do some more research especially the ezwater calculator

Regards
bah

 

[Bribie G]

Cheers warra

I have only used brewmate since i started ag and never paid any attention to beersmith discussions. However i might look into it now that water chemistry is a consideration. Thanks for the reccomendation on the additions and quantities.

Regards
bah

I use EzWater and BrewMate. I have an owned copy of BeerSmith but find it's too big and hairy :lol: for my requirements.

I use RO water, or a mixture of RO and town, for my brews and rule of thumb is, in the mash and later in the boil:

METAL IONS
Whatever else, you need a good amount of Calcium
You need some magnesium but a lot of this will come from the malted grain
Malt and most water is deficient in Zinc - I always add a flat tsp of Ross's yeast nutrient to every boil and bugger it I've run out, will get some next week.

OTHER IONS
Malt driven beers benefit from more Chloride
Hop driven beers benefit from more Sulphate
In a few cases you can add Carbonate but a lot of guys never bother unless it's an "unusual" style like Vienna

So typically for a Yorkshire Bitter I would add a round to heaped teaspoon of Calcium Chloride, a wee touch of Magnesium Sulphate to be on the safe side
For something hop driven like an american or a burton, I'd use a flat to round teaspoon of Calcium Sulphate, a flat to round teaspoon of Magnesium Sulphate.

So there's no one size fits all treatment, EzWater is very good as you will see.

Add the salts to the mash (mix them up dry in the grain) not the water. Because some of them like gypsum or Calcium Carbonate won't dissolve easily, but will dissolve well in the more acidic mash.

:icon_cheers:

edit: that yeast nutrient is really useful if using distilled, rain or RO water as it also supplies all the other traces you need like molybdenum, boron, unobtanium etc.
all salts available in snap packs from CraftBrewer, will last you for a couple of years.

 

[bigandhairy]

thanks bribie,

Having a fiddle with beersmith trial at the moment, I know what you mean, it looks quite complex but I think it will be pretty good when I get my head around it. Finally figured out how to actually open it up after half an hour . just trying to figure out how to select rainwater in the water profiler, not sure if you have to manually add a rainwater profile or if there is a default setting for rainwater. (disclaimer - fk knows if that makes sense as I'm not sure I even understood what I just typed :blink: ) Anyway I'll keep fiddling, oh and also working through beersmith :icon_cheers:

bah

P.S. ezwater looks similar to the water profiler in beersmith, is there a default rainwater setting for ezwater or do you manually add the profiles?

 

[Bribie G]

As I remember you just set "distilled / RO" water as 100% of your water and it should adjust everything to zero.

 

[chiller]

thanks bribie,

Having a fiddle with beersmith trial at the moment, I know what you mean, it looks quite complex but I think it will be pretty good when I get my head around it. Finally figured out how to actually open it up after half an hour . just trying to figure out how to select rainwater in the water profiler, not sure if you have to manually add a rainwater profile or if there is a default setting for rainwater. (disclaimer - fk knows if that makes sense as I'm not sure I even understood what I just typed :blink: ) Anyway I'll keep fiddling, oh and also working through beersmith :icon_cheers:

bah

P.S. ezwater looks similar to the water profiler in beersmith, is there a default rainwater setting for ezwater or do you manually add the profiles?

For your purposes treat rainwater as having no salts. That isn't really correct but the salt ppm are so low that you should be fine. Is your tank unlined concrete? If so you may definitely have minerals from the tank.

Remember with the BS2 water tool set the total amount of water you are going to use on your brewday. I add my total salts to the mash and sparge with untreated [no salt additions] That should closely approximate a treated water with dissolved salts through your entire brewing system. The untreated water will wash salts through the grains with the sugars.

Steve

 

[[email protected]]

Been using rainwater no additives for years no problems

 

[Bribie G]

Been using rainwater no additives for years no problems

The malt and other grains would probably supply nearly all the minerals required. The point of the exercise is to adjust the mineral types to suit certain styles, which can make a real difference depending on the recipe, style and yeast etc. For example I did a Burton Style best bitter with high Sulphates in the mash and couldn't get my yeast revived - I had to go with some West Yorkshire 1469 instead, which is used in high Chloride beers - malt accented. The result is quite drinkable but just doesn't taste right.

BABBs had a "water night" hosted by Pocket Beers a couple of months ago. Unfortunately I couldn't get there but apparently he had brewed the same recipe but with the two waters skewed "opposite" and the results were striking.. anyone who was there might like to comment on what happened?

 

[seamad]

I've been using brewmate in the past and have given BS2 a go.Have decided to have a play with my water as I get more confident with my brewing.
Both my tanks are concrete and epoxy lined.
Ph is 7.4 ( I checked calibration and used 2 pH meters)
TDS is 25ppm
So I figure I should use the distilled water setting in BS2

I know BS2 has water profiles for various beers towns, but doubt that most breweries would not treat their water. Is there any info @ that specifies water profiles for particular beer styles, say an APA of Hefeweizen etc.

I BIAB in 40L urn so would be fairly easy to profile my water.

Any advise welcome

cheers

Sean

 

[seamad]

Any comments?

 

[felten]

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-w...-primer-198460/
good place to start

 

[seamad]

thanks mate, 34 pages should keep me busy for a while.

 

[seamad]

Got about 1/2 way through and brain getting a bit spongy, been a few years since I did chem at uni , will finish the rest in a few days.
Thanks for the link as is the best I have read on water additions

cheers
sean

 

[mILLrAT]

I was at the BABBS water night in April. There were 3 beers all brewed the same except for the water. One was RO, the second Brisbane water and the third burtonised water. I cant recall exactly the beer, it was a dark beer, a stout I think (I haven't nurtured the brain cells that held that information). The three beers did taste noticeably different with most people describing the RO water one as least desirable. Some preferred the Brisbane water over the burtonised one. Water chemistry does make a difference.

The other thing to be aware of when using rainwater is that all manner of things live in the water and it is nowhere as sterile as treated tap water. If you are doing full wort boils then no worries, but if you are doing partials or kits you could wind up with unwanted flavours. For kits etc I boil up all the water I need the day before.

The malt and other grains would probably supply nearly all the minerals required. The point of the exercise is to adjust the mineral types to suit certain styles, which can make a real difference depending on the recipe, style and yeast etc. For example I did a Burton Style best bitter with high Sulphates in the mash and couldn't get my yeast revived - I had to go with some West Yorkshire 1469 instead, which is used in high Chloride beers - malt accented. The result is quite drinkable but just doesn't taste right.

BABBs had a "water night" hosted by Pocket Beers a couple of months ago. Unfortunately I couldn't get there but apparently he had brewed the same recipe but with the two waters skewed "opposite" and the results were striking.. anyone who was there might like to comment on what happened?