Acetaldehyde in Saison

[ekul]

Made my standard house saison:

70% eff
3kg vienna
2kg pale ale malt

27 ibus @ FWH NZ cascade

belle saison yeast (repitched)


Made heaps of batches of this and all have them have been sweet., for some reason im getting an apple flavour in it. Is it possible to ferment saison too high? Max temperature would have been 35, but probably more like 30-32C where it ferments.

Anyone else getting this?

 

[ekul]

I just had a look through my recipes and the last batch (3x cubes) used vic secret instead of NZ cascade. However its only a bittering addition and the off flavour is most definitely acetaldehyde

 

[anthonyUK]

Was it around that temp all the way through fermentation?
If so I would guess it has some serious esteryness going on.
The recommendation for Saison yeast is to start it lower and let it rise from around the mid point to achieve full attenuation.
You can vary this depending on how funky you like it but I find even sticking to a regular ale profile is enough to develop enough of a Saison style.

 

[ekul]

so you reckon if i ferment at 18c all the way through it will still taste like a saison?

 

[Adr_0]

Yes. I will look at my notes tomorrow, but I recall I went from 18-23 just from generated heat from a good starter in a bit over 24hrs. Then let it rise further up to 30 over the next few days. Got down to 1002. Make sure your thermometer is accurate (not mashing too high) and you have an awesome starter.

If you pitched onto the cake from the previous batch, the acetaldehyde may be there from an infection. Confident it's not?

 

[ekul]

What yeast is everyone using?

I dont usually get infections from repitching yeast although it is a possibility. This new place im living in seems to have alot of vinegar flies

 

[anthonyUK]

so you reckon if i ferment at 18c all the way through it will still taste like a saison?

I do this sometimes and it works really well. More of a Belgian ale than a true Saison maybe.

What yeast is everyone using?

The MJ M27 is pretty good for attenuating fully at lower temps.

 

[mje1980]

As above, try starting it out at a lower temp. Even low 20's, then crank it. It will still taste like a saison don't worry

What is a true saison anyway? It's not like the Belgians give 2 shits about style guidelines haha. In the farmhouse ales book I'm sure there are Belgian saison brewers that ferment under 30c. Still warmer than most ales but not that high. Dupont do theirs very hot from the start but that book suggests that's more to do with their equipment, rather than traditional procedure.

 

[taeanbrewer]

Brewed a Saison recently with the same yeast strain and similar malt bill. Was going for the La Sirene clone.

As a response to your problem you found I did get this through a few bottles I left out at ambient temperature (by a few I mean the bottom few just as an experiment). I wanted to see just how high I could push the carbonation (didn't want to push the whole batch in ferm) for this and even as a Saison the extra apple flavour takes away abit from the Saison funky flavours when left out at ambient. Though overtime I think this will mellow out perfectly I hope haha.

I fermented with the belle strain at 19 and raised only to 22 degrees as I read this is best (not sure where I read this). I then carbonated almost all the bottles at the same temperature. It came out lovely and fruity and easy to drink quite young. The few I left at ambient temps are a hit and miss (29-30 during the day).

I only got my Saison down to 1004 (yeast nutrient added) though I guess it depends how funky you want it. I believe mine tastes very very almost the same as the la sirene saison though I don't like Saisons over the top.

 

[drifting79]

G'day fellas reading through these posts I have recently brewed a saison with belle saison yeast I had a 40 ltr all grain brew on pitched at 19 c and allowed it to start for a day then i slowly ramped the temp up over a week to 30 c I left it there for one week then when I was happy that the peak of ferment was complete I slowly brought It back to 21 for another 2 weeks I'm pretty patient with my ferments I rehydrated the yeast and used 2 packs I kegged half and bottled half the kegged lot has been carbbing it for only a week now and I have a slight hot ( alcohol ) note to it with a slightly noticeable saison flavour coming through it is very clean and I think with a few months Aging it's going to be a terrific beer but in future I will endeavour to use a liquid Yeast variety which I haven't tried as yet but a good saison is my favourite style

 

[anthonyUK]

I would say you raised the temp too early cooperville which is why you have the hot fusels.
You really only need to raise the temp towards the end as some strains can be a bit sluggish to fully attenuate even the liquid strains.

 

[drifting79]

Good to know I may try to make the recipe again and try a different ferment temp schedule

 

[mje1980]

How strong was it?

 

[drifting79]

G'day Mje1980 the SG was 1068 FG at 1000 the hot flavour is not at all unpleasant and am sure it will mellow with the right amount of Aging my recipe also asked for 50g of bird of paradise and 50g of bitter orange 25 g of coriander seed this amount of these additions hasn't left any overpowering taste but is slightly there but no way overpowering
As it was my first brew using those additions I wasn't sure so aired on the side of caution

 

[mje1980]

50g of grains of paradise?.

 

[drifting79]

Sorry checked my notes 14 g of coriander
7gr of bitter orange
2 gr seed of paradise

 

[mje1980]

Ok. Seemed like a lot. Try it again in a few weeks, it should smooth out, saison almost always gets better with age.

 

[drifting79]

Yeah it's quite high abv so partly the reason I wanted to bottle half so I wouldn't finish it off too quick and will be nice to see how the Aging process changes it

 

[ekul]

I forgot to reply to this thread. The next batch I did on the yeast it was infected, so i think the apple brew was just mildly infected without showing signs. Tasted so bad i havent made one since. Will hvae to make one soon