A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag

[Thirsty Boy]

What I am trying to say is that you can add litres of water to both the traditional sparge or BIAB system and you will always get increased efficiency. You will have to compensate this with an increase in boil time though. . . . . What I am thinking is that we could reach near 100% efficiency if we ran enough water through our grain. Then, we would just boil it off. . . . .For the first time ever, I can see why striving for 100% efficiency may have even bigger problems than I originally thought.

Pat,

You can actually reach 100% fairly easily, and even get a little better !! The 100% figure is derived from "standard" lab mashes. Its actually not that hard to extract more sugar than the figure the lab decides is the maximum.

A fly sparge that is really well set-up and conducted can do it (see Graham Sanders for self proclaimed proof) but more frequently thin bed mash filters achieve and exceed the 100% mark. They are just really well conducted sparges. Spend a bunch of money and time on it and you too can be better than perfect.

OR, like you said, you could just keep adding water. With fly sparging you will eventually get all the available sugar, with Batch and/or NoSparge/BIAB you cant becaue you must be leaving some sugar behind, but you can get pretty close. You'd need a LOT of volume in your kettle... but you could get there.

But why would you?? Trying to eek out that last few percentage points is just going to make you do things that will probably result in making worse beer. Tannins, overboiling etc. For what?? Bragging rights?

Honestly, I think the BIAB & its efficiency argument is effectively dead... it gets efficiencies comparable to both Batch and the majority of Fly spargers. Surely thats good enough.

The only real question left is "are the beers actually good?" I think they are. Within the limits of individual brewer's skills of course. A crappy brewer on $4000.00 automated 3 vessel is definately going to make worse beer than an inspired brewer with a bag and one big pot. The grey area that is inhabited purely by skill and talent is so large, that to say things like "not as good" or "better" is virtually pointless. Different; is just going to have to do!

Brewers are simply going to have to kick their brains into gear, evaluate the different methods for their different features, pick one and get on with making beer.

A little BIAB evangelising wont hurt though. Maybe one of these days we can stop being a cult and gain tax exempt status as a mainstream religion...................................

TB

 

[PistolPatch]

LOL Kingy and Thirsty! Thanks for another great post mate :super: I reckon your comments are spot on.

matti just gave a link to a very interesting article in another thread that is VERY relevant here. I think anyone who BIAB's should have a read. Here it is.

As you'll see, he is saying an over-filtered/over-extracted/high efficiency wort is not necessarily a good thing at all.

Anyway, I have just mashed in half an hour ago (5:30pm here ) and after reading that article, I'm going to do the 20 minute mash out that he suggests.

Thanks again Thirsty!!!!

Edit: I was pretty focussed on brewing last night and didn't notice my spelling mistakes. Have just changed 'lonk' to 'link' and 'NIAN' to 'BIAB.' Was completely sober too!

 

[PistolPatch]

A few posts back I said I'd post a pic of the trub and wort in a hydrometer jar. Here it is...



This sample was taken just before the end of the boil but after koppafloc was added. As you can see, there is a lot of trub but the wort is very clear. I think Michael Millspaw (the guy who wrote the article linked in the post above) would like this When I do my next side by side, I'll see if I can do the same pics to get a good idea of the trub difference between batch and BIAB.

As mentioned, in last night's brew, I did the mash out for 20 minutes at 77 degrees. The gravity rose by 0.5 Brix (9.6 to 10.1 or 1.039 SG to 1.041 SG) but, being just one brew, I can't say whether the mash out makes this difference every time. Maybe someone else knows? Meanwhile, I'll keep taking some measurements and see what happens.

From memory I think a few of you guys are already doing a mashout? Ned? Thirsty?

BTW, I had a taste of the grain and it had bugger all sweetness to it.

Note for Thirsty: I forgot to say before but in your last post where you mention that fly-sparging will eventually get all the sugar out, doesn't it take all the sugar out of the top first and then start extractting undesirables? Also wouldn't you need to use a hell of a lot of water? In other words, do you reckon it would actually be feasible?

Spot,
Pat

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Note for Thirsty: I forgot to say before but in your last post where you mention that fly-sparging will eventually get all the sugar out, doesn't it take all the sugar out of the top first and then start extractting undesirables? Also wouldn't you need to use a hell of a lot of water? In other words, do you reckon it would actually be feasible?

Yep, exactly. Pretty much my point. You CAN get 100% efficiency, but you are probably going to make really shit beer.

Really well set up, really experienced with your system, really know what you are doing... you can probably get close and still make great beer. By the time you suck nasties out of the top layers, you have pulled the last of the sugar out of the bottom and you cut it off...... But I certainly couldn't do it, and I just dont think that the time and effort would be for any point other than sheer bloody mindedness.

Maybe in 20 years, when I am a brewing God, and there is nothing else I think I can do to improve my brewing... then I will worry about getting efficiency any higher than 75% into the kettle.

TB

 

[FNQ Bunyip]

While I think of it....

Ned (who is my mate and won't mind me asking the following,) I know you have been away fishing but when you are back, can you tell me/us if the water you use to rinse the grain with are over and above the normal volumes?

From what I read on closer examination whilst summarising the summaries, they actually are extra litres.

Hi buddy , Sorry its been awhile..Just trying to catch up a bit now..

So yes I add an extra 3 lts to "rince/sparge" my bag. So if I fill my keggel to around 35lts then mash and remove the bag let drain for 2 or 3 minutes then pour the 3lts though the bag and grain let drain again for 2 or 3 minutes and then squeze the like buggery I find that I am back up to around the 35lts I started with . a 1hr boil will leave me with app 26.5lts and I can get 25lts into the fermenter.

:beer:

 

[MVZOOM]

Hi All,

Phrak and BenHobbs intro'd me to the BIAB concept on Wed night. I'm off now to get some of that fabric and stuff to make one up - how easy and time saving is it!

We got 24L @ 1044 from 5kg of grain on Wed night, with an aborted 'traditional' mash - threw the grain into a bag and kept on going. Result is good, if a little bit lacking in clarity.

I have searched through this thread to download the handbook - can't find it. Can someone pop it through?

Cheers - Mike

 

[phonos]

Hi MVZOOM
All the booklets and stuff are in the first 4 posts. Its not completely up to date, but reading the summary posts should clear up any changes to the original booklet.

Pat keeps saying he's working on completely updating the booklet, but I'm not sure if it will be out any time soon. But here's hoping!

 

[MVZOOM]

Hi MVZOOM
All the booklets and stuff are in the first 4 posts. Its not completely up to date, but reading the summary posts should clear up any changes to the original booklet.

Pat keeps saying he's working on completely updating the booklet, but I'm not sure if it will be out any time soon. But here's hoping!

Yep - got it - thanks, don't know how I missed it!!

Cheers - Mike

 

[3GumsBrewing]

Guys, two quick BIAB questions.

I did a Belgian Pale Ale on Saturday, got a little distracted and left the mash at around 72C for about 70min. Will this high-ish temp stuff things up?

Also just out of interest, I think I am getting about 69% efficiency out of the boil, (started with 32L, ended up with 22L) is this crap? I keep reading about 75% everywhere, even promash has 75% as the efficiency. Is my boil rolling too much?

Cheers
DK

 

[bayWeiss]

snip...

Also just out of interest, I think I am getting about 69% efficiency out of the boil, (started with 32L, ended up with 22L) is this crap? I keep reading about 75% everywhere, even promash has 75% as the efficiency. Is my boil rolling too much?

Cheers
DK

Efficiency is a number that relates to how well you are extracting sugars out of your grain. It is not the post-boil/pre-boil volume ratio.

Here are a couple of links to help out

http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-5.html
http://byo.com/mrwizard/1120.html

cheers!
:beer:

 

[3GumsBrewing]

Efficiency is a number that relates to how well you are extracting sugars out of your grain. It is not the post-boil/pre-boil volume ratio.

Ahhhh, thanks for that. I had no idea!

Beers
DK

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Ahhhh, thanks for that. I had no idea!

Beers
DK

DK,

Now that you have sorted out what efficiency refers to... there is still the matter of your boil off rate. Which sounds a bit too high to me.

How long are you boiling for?? Most of the things I have read suggest a maximum boil off rate of 15% an hour. You are in that ball park if you are boiling for 2 hours, but actually still a little high, if its only an hour, you are boiling off at 30+% which is way too high. The excessive heat will cause flavour changes in your beer.

Better turn your heat down a bit. If you need to boil off more liquid, boil slower for longer.

Thirsty

 

[3GumsBrewing]

Better turn your heat down a bit. If you need to boil off more liquid, boil slower for longer.
Thirsty

Thanks Thirsty, again on Saturday I got distracted and left the boil rolling rapidly for ages, I had a feeling that it would cause excess evaporation, not to mention my Belgian Pale is looking decidedly non-pale!

I will definitely slow the boil down for the next one.

Cheers
DK

 

[PistolPatch]

Thirsty: Thanks for another top answer mate.

Bunyip: Thanks for catching us up Ned. What do you reckon about, instead of adding those extra 3 litres later, just adding them at the beginning of your mash? I'm just thinking that you'll get the same end result in litres and probably the same efficiency without the hassle. Maybe including the mash out bit (which I can't remember if you do or not) will also increase the efficiency??? Anyone got any thoughts on this?

MVZOOM: Mike, it's great to hear you are going tohave a crack at the AG. Phrak's a BIAB pioneer so you are in great hands. Is BenHobbs an undercover BIABer - lol? Look forward to hearing how your first one takes off.

Phonos: I have something for you in a sec

DK: Efficiency issues can be really bewildering and we just had a huge thread to try and clarify some of the confusing bits. There were so many posts (including lots from Bayweiss and Thirsty) that I ended up editing my first post so poor buggers like you wouldn't have to read everything So, check this post out.

As for your mash at 72 degrees, I suppose that if the whole mash was done at that temp, your beer is going to be a bit on the sweet side. Your thermometer might be a bit out either way which could work for or against you. It's an interesting question though as I have no idea what sort of beer you get if you mash outside of the 62-70 degree range. The link that Hashie gave me that I mentioned in one of my last few posts here talks about adding specialty grains at a mash out temperature of 77 degrees! God knows what happens when you do this but Hashie PM'ed me the other day saying he gave it a go so it'll be interesting to see what he reckons about this.

The BIAB Re-Write (The Bit for Phonos - LOL!)

So you guys want to know how the BIAB re-write is going? Well, you know when you clean out a shed or a cupboard? You pull everything out of the shed/cupboard, lay it out all over the place and then think, 'Why on earth did I ever start this and how friggin' long is it going to take me to put everything back?'

Well that's the stage at which the BIAB re-write is at. I have lots of paragraphs re-written, photos all over the place, several proposed new formats and one or two missing bits all spread over 8 Microsoft Publisher files!

To give you an idea, when I was at this stage of the first re-write, it took from 4am to midnight without too many breaks to put it all together with lots of encouraging emails from jimmysuperlative!

Anyway, thanks to the guys writing the Post Summaries, a lot of the hard work is out of the way. The first four posts are fairly under control. Just the BIABBooklet to go.

I just had a peek at some of those Publisher files. Ummmm. Don't hold your breath guys! I will go and have another proper look at the files now but for the final product, I think we really have to wait for a morning where I wake up in a highly manic state and feel like drinking a heap of coffee

Might as well get it right...

Cheers,
Pat

P.S. The above question of whether to do a 'mash-out' is an example of one of the questions I'd like definitively answered before finishing the booklet and it's an answer I can't provide myself as I do not weigh my own grain so I can't take accurate efficiency measurements over anything but a large number of brews. I also know nothing about grain chemistry. Anyway, we might have to just let that one slide.

 

[FNQ Bunyip]

Bunyip: Thanks for catching us up Ned. What do you reckon about, instead of adding those extra 3 litres later, just adding them at the beginning of your mash? I'm just thinking that you'll get the same end result in litres and probably the same efficiency without the hassle. Maybe including the mash out bit (which I can't remember if you do or not) will also increase the efficiency??? Anyone got any thoughts on this?

Oh boy here we go.. Mmmm ,, Ok the 3lt (sparge/rince) water seems to run at around 4 to 7 birx and as the grain has already soakd up all its going too, I get it all back . So adding the 3lts of wort from this is gettng more out rather than those sugars being left in the grain /bag when you lift and squeze at the end..

I think that makes sense...

If by mash out you are refering too raiseing the temp to 70+ at the end of the mash , I have done this once or twice but dont have any conclusions on its benifit or otherwise at this stage.

I must admit too not realy paying a lot of attention too brewing lately and just produceing/drinking lots of beer..

I have a seconde NASA burner here and will be makeing some changes to the brew rig in the comeing weeks. The single swinging burner worked well but diden't lend itself too small temp addjustments on the seconde pot when the first pot was at full boil very ezyly , so willl mount the new burner and have lots more control of both brews ...

:beer:

 

[Guest Lurker]

DK,

You are in that ball park if you are boiling for 2 hours, but actually still a little high, if its only an hour, you are boiling off at 30+% which is way too high. The excessive heat will cause flavour changes in your beer.

Better turn your heat down a bit. If you need to boil off more liquid, boil slower for longer.

Thirsty

I wouldnt take that as gospel. Firstly, evaporation is independent of batch volume. So any reference that specifies a maximum evaporation as a percentage, and doesnt specify the batch size, is inherently flawed. If I brewed an 8l batch, I would get 100% evaporation, and that would be exactly the right amount.

Secondly, not boiling hard enough can easily have a detrimental effect on your beer, while I havent seen much evidence that boiling too hard can. How do you get your wort "excessively hot" when it is at boiling point?

Best to achieve a vigorous rolling boil, so that you know all the required physical and chemical processes are occurring in your wort, and not get hung up on what the evap percentage is.

Sorry for the off topic, if you seacrh on evaporation loss you will find plenty of threads discussing these concepts.

 

[Aaron]

I think Guest Lurker is spot on with those comments. I used to just go along with the % thing until he pointed it out in another thread. I have done some tests and it appears to hold up. That said these are only my tests done at home so you should probably find your own evidence. Seems to work though. I'm sure someone has done some real research on this, not the rough stuff most can achieve at home.

 

[PistolPatch]

Oh boy here we go.. Mmmm

LOL Ned! I'm going to ring you on this rinsing business and to hear more about your burner trials.

GuestLurker and Aaron: Nothing is off-topic in the BIAB thread GL - lol! I agree with what you say. I go for the vigorous boil and from all I've read or heard, this is correct. The only situation I can see where there would be a danger of scorching the beer is perhaps if you had a thin-bottomed pot and a NASA burner where the flame is intensely concentrated. I imagine this could be a worry but I'm not sure. Thanks for the info guys.

Spot ya,
Pat

 

[Hashie]

...


As for your mash at 72 degrees, I suppose that if the whole mash was done at that temp, your beer is going to be a bit on the sweet side. Your thermometer might be a bit out either way which could work for or against you. It's an interesting question though as I have no idea what sort of beer you get if you mash outside of the 62-70 degree range. The link that Hashie gave me that I mentioned in one of my last few posts here talks about adding specialty grains at a mash out temperature of 77 degrees! God knows what happens when you do this but Hashie PM'ed me the other day saying he gave it a go so it'll be interesting to see what he reckons about this.

...

P.S. The above question of whether to do a 'mash-out' is an example of one of the questions I'd like definitively answered before finishing the booklet and it's an answer I can't provide myself as I do not weigh my own grain so I can't take accurate efficiency measurements over anything but a large number of brews. I also know nothing about grain chemistry. Anyway, we might have to just let that one slide.

Well Pat, I did another batch yesterday with a mash out and the specialty grains in at mash out, with an interesting result.

First of all, I measure and crush my own grain.
Second, I am using a 'Corona' style grain mill. So I expect my efficiencies to be ~10% points lower than those that use a 'roller' style mill.

Yesterdays grain bill was;

JWM Pilsener 4.2 kg
JWM Munich 1.13 kg
Wheat malt 0.28 kg
Chocolate malt 0.12kg
Crystal malt 60l 0.12 kg
Carafa special 2 0.45 kg

Hops;

Nugget 25 grams 9.8% a/a 60 minutes
Cluster 23 grams 6.6% a/a 20 minutes

35 litre full volume mash BIAB @ 66 degrees 60 minutes Here I mashed the Pilsener, Munich and Wheat.
Mash out @ 76 degrees 20 minutes. Here I added the Chocolate, Crystal and Carafa.
60 minute boil.
Pre boil volume 32 litres
Post boil volume 26 litres

OG into fermenter 1056.

That gives me ~75% efficiency. Previously I've only been achieving ~65 - 70%.
So I'd say that doing a mash out definitely helps improve efficiency, while adding the spec. grains at mash out, will help with beer stability and clarity.

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

... while adding the spec. grains at mash out, will help with beer stability and clarity.

Where might I find more information on this? I think I am destined to be unstable, but perhaps this will help with my lack of clarity...