A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag

[MVZOOM]

I want to do double batches, of 20L each - I'm thinking of using two grain bags?

Cheers - Mike

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

I have the 70lt and am thinking about getting another the same size. It's big enough to do a double-batch* but you'd have to watch it for boil-overs. As Maxt said, you'd want bloody good stitching etc to do double-batches. Alternatively, you could get a cheap, thin pot that slides into the larger pot, drill some holes in the bottom and line this with the bag material. You'd still want a pulley system though to lift it out.

... or a stronger outer bag? Imagine you put your curtain material bag inside something like a nicely-washed grain bag - the sort your grain comes in. That would provide the necessary strength and would not cost too much while the curtain material bag provides the 'filtration' that BIABers have come to know and love.

 

[Kingy]

im worried ive ordered the wrong pot. I got an aluminium one :unsure:

just checked and 80 litre aluminium is $125, 70 litre stainless steel are $245 or 50 litre stainless is $180 now im confused again. Time for another beer

grrrrrr...

 

[jimmysuperlative]

Kingy, there are plenty of brewers using aluminium pots ...and given the cost comparison it's understandable.
I'm using a 55L alumin stockpot on top of a Rambo high pressure burner for my BIAB's. At first I was worried about scorching the bag, but I've done a heap of brews with the same bag no problems.

Having said that, if I had the means I would probably go stainless

Do a search ...I'm pretty sure there's a pro/cons thread?

 

[PistolPatch]

Mike: I'm not entirely sure what you mean but if you mean putting two bags in the one pot at the same time, this could be trouble. I think it's most important to have total free flow around the grain when you agitate. I can see two bags in at once leading to tangles, twists, low efficiency etc. But it looks like Spills has an idea...

Spills: Not a bad idea mate. Not sure what you mean by the grain bag though - hessian? I reckon you'd need a polyester of some sort so it wouldn't rot, give off-flavours etc. Dunno! Those thin-based aluminium pots are bloody cheap though so I reckon I'm going for that instead even for my normal BIABs. More notes on ths below.

Kingy: As Jimmy says below, nothing wrong with aluminium. You need to 'season' it first which is easy though I can't remember how (a search on 'season aluminum' should get you there.) There are also some cleaners to avoid as they remove the seasoning - I think TSP is one of these to avoid on ally. I reckon go with your gut as to whether to go SS or ally. If you want to change to SS, just give the guys (I assume it was Allquip?) a ring on Monday and they'll change your order so no need to panic.

Double Batching: Been thinking more on this today and it might be an idea for beginners to not worry about double-batching. Just buy your first pot, preferably 70 or 80 litres and brew away. You will bugger up a batch or two so much better buggering up 23 litres than 46! Then...

Those who have BIABed for a while and really want to double-batch, maybe you are better off getting another kettle, burner and bag. This way, when you double-batch, then you could either do two of the same brews in the different kettles or maybe batch-sparge them using one kettle as an HLT along with an esky and a bag. This way, when you are not double-batching you can still do two different brews at the same time or some side by side stuff.

Scuse all my writing on this side by side stuff but I'm finding it pretty exciting!

Spot!

 

[Kingy]

ok cool thx guys aluminium it is. also if it were dangerous to use why do they sell them they must be safe.

What do people clean there aluminium with?

it also ok to season it with oil?as this is what they say to do....

is this going to affect my brews?

 

[PistolPatch]

Mornin' Kingy!

Nup, don't use oil to season the ally (great for cast iron frying pans though ) Finally found the instructions and they are very simple. Here's what chiller wrote...

Season the pot either by filling it with water and boiling for 10 minutes or [very carefully - and following all safety procedures] wipe the interior of the pot out with neat phosphoric acid and leave it for 5 minutes. Wash it out then with water and air dry.

Both methods will passivate the aluminium and the surface will go that wonderful dull grey that makes every brewer with aluminium happy.

The metal will oxidise within about 10 minutes of exposure to air and heat.

Spot ya,
Pat

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Spills: Not a bad idea mate. Not sure what you mean by the grain bag though - hessian? I reckon you'd need a polyester of some sort so it wouldn't rot, give off-flavours etc. Dunno! Those thin-based aluminium pots are bloody cheap though so I reckon I'm going for that instead even for my normal BIABs. More notes on ths below.

I haven't seen a hessian grain bag since my father was selling bags of wheat for cattle feed in the 1970's!

I'm thinking the woven plastic stuff. I think I have seen exactly one malted grain bag and it was just such a thing. I reckon a good wash and you're away. (Were it not for my fear of being misinterpreted, I would suggest a superphosphate or dynamic lifter bag...)

The second pot idea seems like it would work just fine, except that the bag is kinda relegated to being a filter pad and you end up with a bloddy big dripolator...

And the cost...

And the washing up...

Would you take your big home-made colander into the shower with you, PistolPatch?

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

ok cool thx guys aluminium it is. also if it were dangerous to use why do they sell them they must be safe.

What do people clean there aluminium with?

it also ok to season it with oil?as this is what they say to do....

is this going to affect my brews?

My brew pot only ever gets used for brewing. I rinse with water, scrub with a plastic scrubbing brush and rinse again. I think I once washed it with a bit of percarbonate.

I seasoned mine with a batch of beer! My pot is probably 2.5mm thick, so I guess it might last me a little while longer even if I didn't get the passivation thing correct...

 

[kook]

Mornin' Bayweiss,

The advantage of side by side brewing with BIAB is mainly cost and practicality (time and space).

Let's say that you wanted to brew the same beer at different evaporation rates to see the difference. For real side by side brewing, I think that simultaneous brews are going to give you the most accurate results. (For example, even your tap water can change in composition from one day to the next - even one hour.)

To do this test with traditional equipment, you'll need 2 HLTs, 2 Mash Tuns, Two Kettles and 4 Burners. You'll also need room to put all this and high concentration levels!!!

I don't understand. If you're doing a side-by-side brew with BIAB and traditional equipment, how are you keeping the brews the same? Your liquor/grist ratio is going to be drastically different for a start, then there is sparging / mash out techniques as well as your method of maintaining mash temperature.

To do two "identical" batches to test the variance with different evap rates, why do you need double the equipment? Why not just start the mash on the second brew during the boil on the first? If you time everything right it should be quite straightforward. You're more likely to get consistant results than using two drastically different mash methods.

 

[kook]

BIAB is actually not, 'no-sparge' brewing as traditionally known. 'No-sparge' uses about 2/3 of the total brewing volume of water required in the mash and then the remaining 1/3 that would be normally used for sparging is just added straight to the kettle. This is why the efficiency is low and therefore needs about 25% more grain to compensate but the maltiness is higher. Trough Lolly wrote several brilliant posts on this in the 'All In One Brewery' thread. His first one is

For this reason, we've been describing BIAB as a 'full-volume' method. BIAB uses the same grain bill as in batching or fly and the same water but ALL the water goes into the mash. So, the efficiency is great but, as with batch-sparging and fly-sparging, you won't get that extra maltiness that comes with 'no-sparge' brewing.

How does that work as the gravity of the batch increases though? As the liquor/grist ratio gets lower and comes much closer to the range used on traditional equipment, does it not simply become a no-sparge batch?

 

[bayWeiss]

I don't understand. If you're doing a side-by-side brew with BIAB and traditional equipment, how are you keeping the brews the same? Your liquor/grist ratio is going to be drastically different for a start, then there is sparging / mash out techniques as well as your method of maintaining mash temperature.

To do two "identical" batches to test the variance with different evap rates, why do you need double the equipment? Why not just start the mash on the second brew during the boil on the first? If you time everything right it should be quite straightforward. You're more likely to get consistant results than using two drastically different mash methods.

PP was talking about two BIAB batches that were side by side. But, the only savings i really see in doing this is time. You are right, and one could save money on the equipment and just run two batches consecutively (sp?) and get the same result. Absolute time of day will be different, but time boiling/mashing can be done so as to make the batch identical to the first (or not).

 

[bayWeiss]

How does that work as the gravity of the batch increases though? As the liquor/grist ratio gets lower and comes much closer to the range used on traditional equipment, does it not simply become a no-sparge batch?

Well, I think it is technically "no sparge", since no sparging is going on, really. Basically BIAB is a "no-sparge" with a large liquor->grist ratio, that happens to match the full volume when drained. The drain is a raising of the grains instead of a dropping/pumping of the water out of the tun.

:beer:

 

[PistolPatch]

Spills So that's what you were thinking! Mate, I wouldn't use one of those as I doubt they would have any sort of hat tolerance for a start. They are more a plastic so all sorts of things could go wrong.

The big dripolator is what I'm after I think. A little more elegant plus less exposure to oxygen as you lift the bag out. Mmmm. I have the germ of an idea but will post it later as Kook has so many questions!

Kook I'm going to PM you my phone number as I may not be able to write answers well enough in a short space - not that I usually let this deter me Your brewing knowledge is very advanced and the beers you are used to tasting etc are also very advanced so I might need to actually chat with you to answer them in full and correctly - if I can! Hopefully you saw our other answers to your other questions here

Some of the things I can answer are...

Yep Bayweiss is right where he says I was talking about doing two BIAB brews side by side. But it shouldn't be forgotten that the side by side brew that Brad-G and I did on different equipment (one batched and one BIABed) produced beers identical to some very advanced brewers. Only one got the triangular test right.

The point I'm trying to make here is that everyone says you cannot produce identical beers on two different bits of equipment. I think this is a bit of mis-information stemming from the 'Adelaide test.' In that test, for a start, people were not using the same thermometers. How on earth they would expect to produce the same beer without calibrating their thermometers has me buggered for a start!

Sure, in some testing, different systems will play a part but for a lot of testing, different systems will not. (Having identical thermometers for example goes a long way to solving a lot of differences.) I'm actually going to go out on a limb here and criticise a brewing god - Jamil. He says in the audio Thirsty linked above that he liked one beer that was brewed with 12% evaporation rate but couldn't stand the one brewed at 15%.

I have real problems with accepting that gospel. If you are mucking around at that fine a level then I think you would have to brew the beer at identical times on identical equipment, repeat the brew several times and do several tastings. I heard no mention that this was done.

I think that when I talk about side by side brewing, I'm really talking about the advantages of being able to do two brews on the same day (as you suggested.) It is even better and easier still, especially as a beginner, to do it with another brewer at the same time.

Your other question re liquor to grist ratios is related to your question on big beers in the other thread. I think that's one I'd like to talk on the phone about as there are a few ways you could approach this and I know bugger all about big beers.

Spot ya Kook and I loved your freezer and font mate. Top job!
Pat

 

[Kingy]

can anyone point in the right direction as to where to look for a wok stand to put in my boiler and around 490mm wide

 

[blackbock]

Kingy do you mean the cake stand? Ask poppa joe! :lol:

If you can't find one that fits beforehand, don't worry. It's not really necessary.

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

If you heat the water to a couple of degrees above your strike temp then put the bag in, the chance of scorching your bag is increasingly small.

 

[Kingy]

ok thats good to hear so if i got a cake stand that was smaller than my pot it would still be an advantage.

sorry for all these questions as of late but i want to be fully ready when i do my first biab

 

[Thirsty Boy]

can anyone point in the right direction as to where to look for a wok stand to put in my boiler and around 490mm wide

I know a lot of the other guys dont think its necessary. But I'm still a bit paranoid abut melting my bag.

I dont know how many other guys are doing it, but I like to heat my mash up to a mash out temp of 78 just before I pull out the bag, so I have the burner on when the bag is in and full, so I like the reassurance that the cake stand gives me, even if I could probably get away without it.

Mind you, I am doing small batches on the stove, a full size set-up will probably have a different dynamic.

If you decide you want the insurance of the wok stand. Asian restaraunt supply stores. They carry lots of spares and have them in sections that you can just join together to get the size pretty right. Cheap too.

I wouldn't bother so much with a cake stand thats much smaller than the diameter of the pot, your bag would them still be able to touch the inner surface of the pot where flame was in direct contact on the outside. Kind of defeats the purpose.

Thirsty

 

[Kingy]

is this what u mean
http://cgi.ebay.com/Cake-Stands-Stainless-...1QQcmdZViewItem

or is this what yaz mean. to me this looks like the ultimate

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Precise-Heat-65qt-...VQQcmdZViewItem