3068 Vs Saf Dried Wheat Yeast

[Trent]

Gday All
Just thought I may go out on a limb here, and start me a thread on the similarities/differences between Wyeast 3068 (weihenstephan wheat yeast) and the new saf dried wheat yeast, that is available through MHB, Ross, and sereral other quite reputable HBS's, I am quite sure.
This whole idea wasnt even my own (nor really anybody's), I dropped in to see MHB when I got back from the states, with the intention of getting enough supplies to make a 46L batch of hefeweizen to put into 2 kegs for me and my mates to mow through on grand final weekend. Mark suggested I use the dried wheat yeast, but I told him I already had some 3068 slurry ready to pitch. Long story short, he gave me the sachet of dried yeast, and asked me to put aside a few litres of the wort and use the dried yeast. I decide to treat his genorosity as best I could, so, I went one step better, and split the wort in half, and pitched one with the dried yeast (cant remember the number) and one with the slurry of 3068.
The recipe was simple enough
5.2kg pale malt (bit of a mix between ale malt, and some leftover pils malt)
5.2kg malted wheat

Mashed at 68C for one hour

13 IBU from EKG

OG 1054

The worts were separated into 2 fermenters after the chiller, both were aerarted for just over 1m with pure O2 at 1L/min through a 0.5 micron diffusion stone.
The experiment isnt without its fault, as the saf yeast was fermented in a 30L pail, and the 3068 in a 60L drum fermenter, hence reducing the height to width ratio of the 3068. I have NO idea what difference this will make in the grand scheme of things.
The saf wort (lets call is beer #1) was pitched at 17C with one full sachet rehydrated in water.
The 3068 (beer #2) was pitched at 18C with approx 130 billion yeast cells (about 65mL of fairly clean slurry).
Both were fermented at ambient temp in my laundry.

By day 5, I took a gravity sample. Neither of the beers experienced the crazy foam out the top of the fermenter as usually expected with a German Wheat yeast, only had the kind of krausen I get on an average beer.

Beer #1 - 1018 at 18C. Clovey and an almost pineapple aroma. No detectable banana. A clovey flavour, with some pear in the aftertaste (strangely enough)

Beer #2 - 1018 at 20C. Banana and pear in the aroma, no real detectable clove, and a very bland flavour, hardly anything detectable. I do tend to get this with alot of my beers halfway through ferment though, and by the end there is heaps of flavour.
These temps were pretty much the peak fermentation temps for both beers.

Day 9 I checked the 3068, and there was plenty of banana.

Now we are up to day 11 in primary, and I am about to rack them to kegs and bottles.

Beer #1 - 1009 - Moderate clovey flavour, no detectable banana, definite wheat breadiness. IMO, not as much my cup of tea as the banana-ey flavours typical of my weizens.

Beer #2 - 1012 - low clove flavour, moderate banana flavour, some low breadiness, and some hot alcohol (dunno why). Banana seems to have backed off in the last 2 or 3 days.

I will be delivering a few bottles to some of the Newy people in the next 2 weeks or so, and getting them also to comment on their views on the 2 different tastes. Obviously Les the Weizguy and MHB will be at the forefront. Be interesting to try both beers after they have conditioned.

My first impressions are the 3068 hasnt lived up to the way it usually behaves in my brewery, but it is still fairly nice. The dried yeast certainly seems to be a very nice wheat yeast, though didnt give me the banana I was after. Of course, fermenting at a higher temp could alter that drastically. I dont usually go for dried yeasts, but this one seems to hold its own, I will report back more after trying the beers conditioned.

Oh, and just as a disclaimer - THIS EXPERIMENT IS OBVIOUSLY VERY SUBJECTIVE, AND NOT MEANT TO BE DEFINITIVE!!!! IT WAS NOT PERFORMED UNDER STRICTLY CONTROLLED CONDITIONS!!!! I just thought that people may find the comparison interesting, and informative.
I dont really want this becoming a debate on the benefits of liquid or dried yeasts, so if you feel you need to add to this thread, then please just keep it to your experience with the 2 yeasts.
You'll be hearing back in a few weeks from me and maybe a few others (should be a few weeks, considering weizens arent at their optimum for too long :lol: )

All the best
Trent

 

[0M39A]

fantastic write up!

ive got an extract weizen with WB-06 (the dried wheat yeast) in primary atm, going on nearly 3 weeks =\ need to get off my arse and bottle it soon...

 

[Ross]

As stated in the previous thread, the dried yeast appears to be more similar to 3333. The Fermentis description on their site, is pretty well identical to the Wyeast 3333 description as well, so that would be my guess. It's certainly not 3068 IMO. A comparisson between these 2 would be more interesting.
I've tried fermenting at 24c to create more banana, but it just resulted in less clove. I found 22c to give a nice clove character with subtle banana & bubblgum & will be my fermenting regime in future. Jye used an acid rest to promote clove & his was extremely clovey.

cheers Ross

 

[///]

Avoiding the liquid v dried yeast issue on the fermenter side, shape and side does have a dramatic affect on the outcome of yeast. One of the issues for a commercial beer is flavour profiling with a new system; as happened locally when Coopers built thier new plant and in the UK when brewers went from squares to conicals.

CUB are a word leader in ensuring VB from one plant tastes the same as from another, if you think about it that is serious shiz-bang technical and engineering stuff.

I was lucky enough to visit Ross yesterday and tried one of his really drinkable beers fermented with the yeast and it had a nice clove aroma. Ross has the ultimate mans room, great beer, pin ball, pool and a fold out bed...

Scotty

 

[Screwtop]

Exactly what I would have expected Trent, my findings are: 3068 pitched low and fermented at 22C produces plenty of banana. Repitched much less, probably because I've overpitched, would try 125ml next time to stress the yeast.

Dried wheat yeast pitched low 12g rehydrated and fermented at 18C produces clove, if a ferulic rest is included the clove becomes quite strong. Haven't repitched this yeast yet.

Horses (yeast) for courses, I reckon.

Screwy

Edit: To add PS: You're spot on re the Pear flavour.

 

[Tony]

I have a wiessebier firmenting ATM with the dry yeast.

I repitched the 3068 i saved from the top of my last beer a mionth ago and it was dead. It was bubbling a bit in the bottle once it warmed up but it didnt do squat after 1 1/2 days so i pitched the dry wheat yeast and it went off in 8 hrs.

cans smell or taste the banana i have in the wheat im drinking with the 3068 that i love. Its the perfect wheat beer IMO. i love its flavour profile.

will be interesting to see what the dry stuff yealds but if there is no bananna i dont like my chances of re-use.

I love the bannana but has to be ballanced with the clove component to be great.

cheers

 

[Trent]

As stated in the previous thread, the dried yeast appears to be more similar to 3333. The Fermentis description on their site, is pretty well identical to the Wyeast 3333 description as well, so that would be my guess. It's certainly not 3068 IMO. A comparisson between these 2 would be more interesting.
I've tried fermenting at 24c to create more banana, but it just resulted in less clove. I found 22c to give a nice clove character with subtle banana & bubblgum & will be my fermenting regime in future. Jye used an acid rest to promote clove & his was extremely clovey.

cheers Ross

Thanks Ross
I didnt realise there had been another thread on this, I had a quick peek around before I posted, but not remembering ht eyeast number, I didnt look too hard. I have never tried 3333, so cannot comment, but it is interesting to note that fermenting warmer just results in less clove. I guess this yeast just doesnt produce too much banana (though I recall one bloke saying he got alot of bubblegum out of it). I will continue with this thread anyway, but if anyone else wants to do a comparison between 3333 and the saf yeast, would be interested in seeing those results. I love my banana too much to do 2 yeasts that dont produce much of it!
As I said though, I dont usually go much for dried yeasts, but this one seems to be quite good, and a better attenuator than 3068.
All the best
Trent

 

[choppadoo]

I've got one in primary at the moment.
I decided to jump in the deep end; it was my first wheat beer so why not do my first triple decoction mash as well! anyway after a long and pretty hiccup free brew day i got 21litres of tasty wort and pitched the dry yeast Wb06 at 22C. It been fermenting for 8 days now at 20C and its gone from 1054 to 1013. Definite clove, pretty happy on the balance.
What are other peoples experiences of the attenuation of this yeast?
Should I expect it to go much lower than 1013?

 

[Weizguy]

Thanks Ross
I didnt realise there had been another thread on this, I had a quick peek around before I posted, but not remembering ht eyeast number, I didnt look too hard. I have never tried 3333, so cannot comment, but it is interesting to note that fermenting warmer just results in less clove. I guess this yeast just doesnt produce too much banana (though I recall one bloke saying he got alot of bubblegum out of it). I will continue with this thread anyway, but if anyone else wants to do a comparison between 3333 and the saf yeast, would be interested in seeing those results. I love my banana too much to do 2 yeasts that dont produce much of it!
As I said though, I dont usually go much for dried yeasts, but this one seems to be quite good, and a better attenuator than 3068.
All the best
Trent

Trent,

You prob have tasted a beer made with W3333 or it's Whitelabs equivalent.

The WLP380 that I used in my Gose in the last case swap is equiv to W3333 IIRC. A bit of clove and few esters. Balanced maltiness, and bugger all else.
Not a yeast I will often use, but prob OK for a Gose or Berliner (...maybe my next Berliner will use it).

As for the dry yeast, I currently have a beer that I have fed to it. It's a single-decocted weizen and its sitting on the floor within arm's reach at 19C. It started at 17C and has been going for about 9 days.
The last sample I took at about 6 days, had medium cloves and low banana and traces of bubblegum.

All I can say is that Mark wanted me to ferment higher, but my temp control is not good in Winter and the heat mat would have given me 26C and fusels up the wazoo!

Seth out

 

[chillamacgilla73]

Top stuff Trent on the split batch.

I don't wanna sound like a wowser.......but from my experience, the clove n banana flavours deminish when reusing wiezen yeast cakes. You did mention banana flavours in beer #2 so my theory is thrown out the window but it may be a case of the flavours differing from the first generation. Just a thought.

46lt of weizen for the GF - sounds like fun... :beer:

 

[Dr Gonzo]

I don't wanna sound like a wowser.......but from my experience, the clove n banana flavours deminish when reusing wiezen yeast cakes

I too have noticed that the wheat yeasts lose something when re-used from the slurry.
Top cropping the healthy yeast seems the go.

What sort of clove character are you guys getting in your wheats. Iv'e tried all the liquid wheat yeasts, different mash regimes, different ferment temps to try and get the authentic flavour, but always find it a little too phenolic/band-aid, or just not there at all. To me, all the german wheat beers have a very refined, spicy clove character.

 

[mfdes]

Going slightly off-topic here, but I've always found that fermenting hefe with 3068 at anything above 18 degrees produces way too many fusels and a rough and less drinkable result... medicinal or band-aidy seems appropriate. I am trying to emulate German examples I've tasted and the banana seems to me muted at best, and that's if I can even find it in there.
The German rule is to use pitching and fermentation temperatures that add up to 30 degrees: i.e. either pitch and ferment at 15 or pitch at 12 and allow the temperature to gradually rise to 18 to get a well attenauted finish.
When I do a ferulic acid rest and ferment no higher than 17 degrees I get plenty of clove and a muted banana... much closer to commercial examples, and no objectionable esters.
I'd have to say most homebrewed examples I've tasted seem to have been warm fermented looking for banana and come out a bit too aggresive on the esters and fusels. A good hefe should be so drinkable you'd almost skull the whole glass (if it wasn't so carbonated).

 

[Fatgodzilla]

I was lucky enough to visit Ross yesterday and tried one of his really drinkable beers fermented with the yeast and it had a nice clove aroma. Ross has the ultimate mans room, great beer, pin ball, pool and a fold out bed...

When can I come for a holiday !!!

 

[Trent]

3068 - Funnily enough, despite brewing it at 16C, I have a slight bandaid flavour in this bottle that I am trying now, and a low level of banana, with some clove in the background. The kegged version had more prominent banana (though not as prominent as the first genaration - next time I will top crop), and a balanced clove flavour. I actually split the keg with a bloke that lived in Bavaria for 5 years, and he was bloody wetting himself over it! Mainly because he hadnt had a hefe in about 3 years. There is also an almost feint vanilla in the nose. I would have to say that there may be a low level infection in this bottle (I only got 4 stubbies out of each batch after I kegged, so it IS possible I contaminated it somehow with the spoon/bottling wand, who knows?)

saf dried wheat yeast - this glass smells better. A bready, wheaty aroma, with some definite clove, and no real banana on the nose. It has produced a well balanced beer, with prominent clove on the palate, and no real perceptible banana. The aftertaste is again, bready, wheaty, sweet and clovey, and I have no real complaints about it at all. There is a sweeter aroma as it warms that you could convince me is very low banana, but it is hard to say for sure.

To be honest, I dont usually use dried yeast, I think that it has a funny flavour to it (no need to argue here, it is just my personal opinion) but I have been pleasantly surprised by this wheat yeast. It doesnt have the banana that I am usually after in a weizen, and although others have said banana in the german examples tends to be muted, I have had several examples that have good banana character. I do agree, though, that the yeasts should probably be fermented lower than 18C, as I still tend to get good banana at 16C or so (funnily enough) with first generation 3068.
If you are after clove more-so than banana, then I would have to say that this would be a very good yeast for you, and if you are a weizen man, some of this dried yeast really should be in your fridge, in case of a failed starter.
I was dumb enough to not write down the FG for both of these beers, but I think that it was 1012 for the both of em (from memory), if I find a bit of papaer that I probably wrote the final notes on :lol:, I will correct that.
I will be passing out a bottle of each of these to 2 or 3 other blokes to get their opinions aswell, but for me, I am happy enough to say that the dried wheat yeast will definitely make a good weizen.
All the best
Trent

 

[roger mellie]

3068 - Funnily enough, despite brewing it at 16C, I have a slight bandaid flavour in this bottle that I am trying now, and a low level of banana, with some clove in the background. The kegged version had more prominent banana (though not as prominent as the first genaration - next time I will top crop), and a balanced clove flavour. I actually split the keg with a bloke that lived in Bavaria for 5 years, and he was bloody wetting himself over it! Mainly because he hadnt had a hefe in about 3 years. There is also an almost feint vanilla in the nose. I would have to say that there may be a low level infection in this bottle (I only got 4 stubbies out of each batch after I kegged, so it IS possible I contaminated it somehow with the spoon/bottling wand, who knows?)

saf dried wheat yeast - this glass smells better. A bready, wheaty aroma, with some definite clove, and no real banana on the nose. It has produced a well balanced beer, with prominent clove on the palate, and no real perceptible banana. The aftertaste is again, bready, wheaty, sweet and clovey, and I have no real complaints about it at all. There is a sweeter aroma as it warms that you could convince me is very low banana, but it is hard to say for sure.

To be honest, I dont usually use dried yeast, I think that it has a funny flavour to it (no need to argue here, it is just my personal opinion) but I have been pleasantly surprised by this wheat yeast. It doesnt have the banana that I am usually after in a weizen, and although others have said banana in the german examples tends to be muted, I have had several examples that have good banana character. I do agree, though, that the yeasts should probably be fermented lower than 18C, as I still tend to get good banana at 16C or so (funnily enough) with first generation 3068.
If you are after clove more-so than banana, then I would have to say that this would be a very good yeast for you, and if you are a weizen man, some of this dried yeast really should be in your fridge, in case of a failed starter.
I was dumb enough to not write down the FG for both of these beers, but I think that it was 1012 for the both of em (from memory), if I find a bit of papaer that I probably wrote the final notes on :lol:, I will correct that.
I will be passing out a bottle of each of these to 2 or 3 other blokes to get their opinions aswell, but for me, I am happy enough to say that the dried wheat yeast will definitely make a good weizen.
All the best
Trent

A good thread - now I have 2 conicals I want to do some similar trials.

Trent - as a matter of interest - did you get the delicious tartness from the WB-06. The clove/banana/bubblegum ness is I think temperature dependent - how much/what you get being a direct relationship I think.

But the stand out (apart from the flavour) was the refreshing tart tang that the WB-06 gave.

I have used it twice now - A German Rye and a Raspberry Hefe - both fermented at 21 - 22. Both times have produced good beers in my mind.

Just interested

RM

 

[Trent]

Roger
I didnt really get too much tartness from the WB-06, I found it to be fairly smooth and well balanced. The other boys will report in here soon, and see if they get any tartness. However, my beer with it didnt really get above 18C, so next time I use it, I will try and ferment it higher and ... wait, did you say you have TWO conicals? I am so damn jealous it isnt funny. Not gonna give one away as a "good thread" prize, are ya? :lol:
But no, didnt notice the tartness, sounds like it may be temp related. Anyone else noticed a tartness using this yeast?
Trent

 

[Tony]

have used the 3068 a lot and love it.

used the WB-06 and thought it was infected it tasted so bad. Put some in a bottle in the fridge and it was not infected. It was so megga clove that it teally turned my nose up. tipped out 50 liters of beer ....... not infected but not to taste......... nowhere near it. Not a bananna in site and thats what i like wheat beer. Banana, not 10 tonnes of clove.

Will stick with te 3068 i think.

cheers

 

[mfdes]

Interesting, Tony, but I think hefe yeasts are prized for being the only yeasts that have the ability to produce the clove phenolics. That is what they have in common. The esters, such as banana for some and apricots for others, are incidental. In Germany they hardly eve come through.

I have found with the hefe yeasts I've tried (WLP300, WY3068, WY3638 WY3333) that fermenting warm enough to produce noticeable levels of esters (above 21 degrees) gives me unsatisfactory results. I get a beer that is fantastic when young and the yeast is alive and in suspension, but that gets noticeably solventy and medicinal once the yeast drops out of it. I think the suspended yeast is masking the estery off flavours, which shine through when the yeast is removed.

To me that's not great beer. By fermenting at 16-17, I get a beer that's pleasantly clovey but very very much more drinkable in large quantities. The banana ester (in the yeasts that make it) is still there enough to be picked up but very subtle.

Has anyone had the same experience?

MFS.

 

[winkle]

(snip)
I found 22c to give a nice clove character with subtle banana & bubblgum & will be my fermenting regime in future. Jye used an acid rest to promote clove & his was extremely clovey.

cheers Ross

Just tapped a weizen using WB06 and fermented at 22c with similar results to Ross (no acid rest). Highly drinkable - even the wife likes it - but I'd personally prefer a touch more banana, that said I'll probably keep using it due to laziness.

 

[Ross]

have used the 3068 a lot and love it.

used the WB-06 and thought it was infected it tasted so bad. Put some in a bottle in the fridge and it was not infected. It was so megga clove that it teally turned my nose up. tipped out 50 liters of beer ....... not infected but not to taste......... nowhere near it. Not a bananna in site and thats what i like wheat beer. Banana, not 10 tonnes of clove.

Will stick with te 3068 i think.

cheers

Hi Tony,

what was your mashing & ferment schedule?

Cheers Ross