3068 Starter - Sulfur Central

[manticle]

So far in this thread you've advised:

yeast should be fine
Yeast is infected
Use dry yeast and add ground cloves instead of working out how to push clove esters with mash technique and fermentation schedule with the selected liquid strain
Starters and the propogation that sometimes goes with them are ALWAYS a massive overpitch
Sulphur is derived from overpitching rather than underpitching, despite suggestions from the manufacturer that the opposite is the case

You've also given yourself a high five for 'being irreverent' (ooh subversive) and now you're making fart jokes.

Not sure I would consider your experience of any relevance if I was looking for advice on pretty much anything and yes I would listen to wyeast before listening to you.

I used to think you had something to contribute here, despite disagreeing with many things you say and the way you treat other people's experience and sometimes formal education with so much derision but I'm not sure that's the case anymore.

You're probably an amazing brewer (I'm not) but you are a tit on the internet.

 

[Nick JD]

...but you are a tit on the internet.

Thank you for that moving and epic essay, Mantiickle. Here's a blue and yellow bird (I ran out of gold stars). It's a Tit.

BTW - 3068 stinks like sulphur unless you underpitch it. Honestly, I care not a significant amount. How much that is is anyone's guess.

 

[Synthetase]

[snip]...I cannot for the life of me work out why, if a starter BY DEFINITION (therefore always regardless of step up procedures etc) is a massive overpitch...[snip]

I think what Nick is trying to get at is that the (relatively small) starter has sufficient cells in it to start fermentation of the entire batch of wort. Therefore the starter may have over 20 times the recommended cell density (for fermentation) at pitching time. Of course this is irrelevant if the starter is properly aerated and has been built up from a much, much lower cell count; since in such a situation the cells will be following the aerobic respiratory pathway and not fermenting, as well as only being at a high cell density at the end of their growth curve and not for the entire length of time.

 

[haysie]

The thread was OK, then turned upside down into another shit one. I reckon Nick and Fourstar both send me a sample of their 3068 beer :chug: , Arthur and I will chew the fat over a sip or 2 :super:

 

[manticle]

this is irrelevant if the starter is properly aerated and has been built up from a much, much lower cell count

Exactly my point. To suggest that propogating yeast to build a starter is MASSIVE overpitching (regardless of the actual amount of cells to begin with and we were talking about a slant) is a ridiculous statement when made with no qualification. Overpitching is surely proportional to number of cells versus amount of wort combined with gravity of wort and a slant into 200mL is hardly massive overpitching. Like I said - happy to be corrected by more than just Nick's assertion that it is so.

A slant does not have the optimum amount of cells to start a full batch of wort and a slant is the amount of yeast in question. Nick's either talking out his arse or expressing himself with the articulation of an oak tree - either way I find most of what he says to be irrelevant rather than irreverent.

 

[Nick JD]

Exactly my point. To suggest that propogating yeast to build a starter is MASSIVE overpitching (regardless of the actual amount of cells to begin with and we were talking about a slant) is a ridiculous statement when made with no qualification. Overpitching is surely proportional to number of cells versus amount of wort combined with gravity of wort and a slant into 200mL is hardly massive overpitching. Like I said - happy to be corrected by more than just Nick's assertion that it is so.

A slant does not have the optimum amount of cells to start a full batch of wort and a slant is the amount of yeast in question. Nick's either talking out his arse or expressing himself with the articulation of an oak tree - either way I find most of what he says to be irrelevant rather than irreverent.

I find everything you say to be well written, concise, highly literate and a tad dull.

Synthetase understands what I'm saying that the last two or three steps of stepping up a starter involve basically pouring a cup of yeast into 500ml of wort. I dunno about you but that's an overpitch - and again, being an Oak I'm refering to the 200ml --> 500ml (or whatever) step, when there's gazillions of highly active cells eating sugaz at ballistic rates.

Then again, if Foreskin wants to chuck it because Wyeast says 3068 has no significant sulphur in a starter then I highly recommend he chucks it. Not because I would have no probelms using it (because I've stepped up 3068 from a bottle and got stink, but then got supurb beer) but because I don't want anyone to worry about their fermenter. I'm a sensitive guy like that.

 

[Nick JD]

The thread was OK, then turned upside down into another shit one. I reckon Nick and Fourstar both send me a sample of their 3068 beer :chug: , Arthur and I will chew the fat over a sip or 2 :super:

I'm drinking one right now. It's freakin delicious. 15% Melanoidin, 40% wheat and 15IBUs of Citra at 60 minutes. DAMN!

...stunk like sulphur for the first day of fermentation at 21C too. Massively underpitched it.

 

[Weizguy]

I'm drinking one right now. It's freakin delicious. 15% Melanoidin, 40% wheat and 15IBUs of Citra at 60 minutes. DAMN!

...stunk like sulphur for the first day of fermentation at 21C too. Massively underpitched it.

You say it's delicious, but does it taste like a weizen?
Does not sound like any German-style wheat beer that I have heard of. Less then 50% wheat and all that melanoidin, and the Citra (what the?)...

Anyway, did Fourstar pitch the yeast or not?

I have been holding my breath for days on this result.

As for me, I have a weizen brewed using W3638, pitched with a litre of starter (wort was originally about 1.035), and it smells great. About to go into the keg tonight

 

[Nick JD]

You say it's delicious, but does it taste like a weizen?

Did I say it was a weizen? Where's the rule that says we all have to make beer according to style?

Beer snobs bore me. If I use 3068 must I also use a noble hop? Bullshit to that.

 

[Fourstar]

Anyway, did Fourstar pitch the yeast or not?
I have been holding my breath for days on this result.
As for me, I have a weizen brewed using W3638, pitched with a litre of starter (wort was originally about 1.035), and it smells great. About to go into the keg tonight

OK,

so i pitched the yeast on saturday arvo @ 16deg (ambients are 17-18deg) @ 1.048OG.
Aroma sunday evening with a mild krausen was nothing but clove and mild yeasty esters.
Aroma monday arvo after work - ultra mega sulfur farts @ 1.030SG

So it should be at high krausen at this point. This is the first time it hasnt crawled out of the fermenter for me either. The low ferment temp must be keeping it in check/ the animal caged so to speak.

Knowing my luck i'll come home tonight to a gawd awful mess of 3068.

Im also agitating the fermenter daily to ensure some extra CO2 thats produced during fermentation is roused out of suspension to drive off as much of the hydrogen sulfide aromas as possible. In addition to ensureing correct attenuation.

 

[beerbrewer76543]

*awaits smart arsed comment from Nick JD*

 

[unrealeous]

Aroma monday arvo after work - ultra mega sulfur farts...

Next time SWMBO complains about you dropping your guts you can blame it on the beer.

 

[Fourstar]

Next time SWMBO complains about you dropping your guts you can blame it on the beer.

nope i'll just blame it on her cooking!

 

[Weizguy]

Did I say it was a weizen? Where's the rule that says we all have to make beer according to style?

Beer snobs bore me. If I use 3068 must I also use a noble hop? Bullshit to that.

You did not say it was a weizen, nor did I...

I asked if it tasted like a weizen.

I was concerned that you would be entirely unable to discern any of the yeast character if the hop character was over the top.
I have made 15 IBU beers with a 60 minute boil and the noble hop was very detectable. I can surmise that Citra would be excessive.

I am a beer geek, not a beer snob, and would love to taste your Citra wheat ale.

 

[Nick JD]

I am a beer geek, not a beer snob, and would love to taste your Citra wheat ale.

Probably more a mellow hopfenweizen or hopfenweisse (if there's a difference) if one were trying to pigeon-hole it, I guess.

The fruit salad of the citra and the esters and phenols of the fart-free underpitched 3068 (15 IBUs reached with a 10 minute addition) make it like drinking a banana split fruit sundae.

If I'm gonna drink Germany's "Beer for Girls", I like it to be really limp wristed. You could wear it as a fascinator hat to the Melbourne Cup.

 

[hockadays]

Thought I'd add my two bob, Grew up a 2L starter from a smack pack yesterday with this yeast and the starter had no sulphur at all. Pitched the lot into 44L of fresh hefeweizen last night at 12degc and it's 16degc this morning with a light surface activity. Will post again if it goes smelly.

 

[Fourstar]

Thought I'd add my two bob, Grew up a 2L starter from a smack pack yesterday with this yeast and the starter had no sulphur at all. Pitched the lot into 44L of fresh hefeweizen last night at 12degc and it's 16degc this morning with a light surface activity. Will post again if it goes smelly.

the repitch from the top crop i took for the dunkelweizen has thrown NO sulfur.

It might have soemthing todo with yeast health at this point. Definitely not an infection.

I have also noticed the hefe has mild clove compared to the dunkel. I am crash chilling the weizen today and the dunkel is 2/4 through fermentation. i guess the best esters you get from this yeast are on repitches as well. (mash regieme was identical.)

I guess the scoresheets will tell the tale come VICBREW. the hefe still has a mild sulfur aroma in the headspace, taking a sample its almost negligible. When i keg it i'll run some CO2 through the beer out post and into solution and then vent to try and drive some more of the sulfur off.

Cheers!

 

[manticle]

Why are you crash chilling the weizen if you don't mind me asking?

 

[hockadays]

It certainly sounds like yeast health could be the cause

 

[Fourstar]

Why are you crash chilling the weizen if you don't mind me asking?

im not really interested in drinking hop matter and trub. Especially after rousing the fermenter 48 horus ago to ensure it attenuated properly.

its only 24 hours. just enough to floc out any excessive yeast and then a gentle transfer from primary to the keg tomorrow night. IMO 24 horus is no where near enough time to end up with crystal clear beer. Even if you are using a floccer like 1968 or 1469. 3068 has poor flocculation abilities so i think im in a safe zone for some haze.

actually, i've been quite interested in trying to line up two weizens, as soon as one is ready to keg, i filter it and then with the one thats currently fermenting i top crop some fresh healthy yeast from the krausen into the kegged beer. diamond bright, without the break material and a nice clean healthy chunk of yeast to throw into suspension. :icon_cheers:

atleast thats my understanding of how a few German breweries do it. they reseed with lager yeasts for shelf stability.