3068 Starter - Sulfur Central

[Fourstar]

Ive had some sulfur problems with 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen. As normal i culture up a starter from a slant.

Typically i fill the slant vial and shake, 24-48hours or once activity has ceased, i dump this into 200ml of wort on the stirplate for 24 hours then topup to 400ml. Once this ferments out i crash chill, decant and stepup as required.

(ive had to modify my stepups because my erlenmyers got smashed and im using a fowels varcola jar. i used to go 50ml, 200ml, 700ml)

Im now at the 400ml stage, I smelt it before crash chilling this morning and all i got is BIIIIIG sulfur. The starter smelt ok lastnight, just this monring after 12 hours or so more on the plate is gone sulfury. It semlls like those custard tarts you see at yum cha. Tonight once its chilled i'll taste to see if its got any funk but my main reason for posting was i had masive sulfur the last time i used this yeast from a fresh smack pack that was grown in a 1L starter. The slant i have is from an earlier smack pack which didnt exhibit sulfur. Also when i reslanted the yeast all of the vials smelt like a delicious weizen when venting. :icon_drool2:

The yeast has been growing at ambients 17-18deg~, using wort from my weizen ive got cubed ready to go (extra wort from the tun). The wort was fresh i just wonder if this is typical of this yeast when its stressed during growth or temperature?

Maybe zwickel knows something? Maybe this is normal during growth for this strain?! I just dont want to end up pitching the correct amount of yeast and still end up with a sulfury mess like i did with my last weizen.

Cheers!
:icon_cheers:

 

[WSC]

Ive had some sulfur problems with 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen. As normal i culture up a starter from a slant.

Typically i fill the slant vial and shake, 24-48hours or once activity has ceased, i dump this into 200ml of wort on the stirplate for 24 hours then topup to 400ml. Once this ferments out i crash chill, decant and stepup as required.

(ive had to modify my stepups because my erlenmyers got smashed and im using a fowels varcola jar. i used to go 50ml, 200ml, 700ml)

Im now at the 400ml stage, I smelt it before crash chilling this morning and all i got is BIIIIIG sulfur. The starter smelt ok lastnight, just this monring after 12 hours or so more on the plate is gone sulfury. It semlls like those custard tarts you see at yum cha. Tonight once its chilled i'll taste to see if its got any funk but my main reason for posting was i had masive sulfur the last time i used this yeast from a fresh smack pack that was grown in a 1L starter. The slant i have is from an earlier smack pack which didnt exhibit sulfur. Also when i reslanted the yeast all of the vials smelt like a delicious weizen when venting. :icon_drool2:

The yeast has been growing at ambients 17-18deg~, using wort from my weizen ive got cubed ready to go (extra wort from the tun). The wort was fresh i just wonder if this is typical of this yeast when its stressed during growth or temperature?

Maybe zwickel knows something? Maybe this is normal during growth for this strain?! I just dont want to end up pitching the correct amount of yeast and still end up with a sulfury mess like i did with my last weizen.

Cheers!
:icon_cheers:

Keen to see others thoughts, I'm going to pitch my 3068 tonight.........first time ever and it's for ocktoberfest party late in Oct. If you get the sulphur is there a way to get rid of it etc etc.

 

[Pennywise]

I get the same from all my starters of 3068, and I have had it in the early stages of fermentation when fermented in the upper range (21-22). Have never had issues with it comming through in the beer though, and have never done a CC or higher temp rest with 3068, just good old pitch and ferment for 2 weeks

 

[beerbrewer76543]

I've had some sulphur in the early stages of ferment but it dissipates with time in the fermenter. The last one I brewed had a 1L starter pitched at 12*C then fermented at 18*C... Turned out nice, although the banana is quite subtle so I'm not sure if a higher temp would have helped pronounce it a bit more... Beer was in the fermenter for 2 weeks I think :icon_cheers:

 

[Pennywise]

3068 has BIG bannana potential

 

[MeLoveBeer]

Excuse the ignorance (my knowledge is fairly basic with yeast), but aren't sulphur smells normally caused by yeast autolysis? I would have thought that it would be an indicator of either viability or fermentation outside of preferred temperature range (temp range seems okay to me though)

 

[Nick JD]

In my experience 3068 produces sulphur when overpitched. If the krausen is trying to get out of the fermenter, it'll be sulphury, I've had one that was still a bit whiffy in the bottle and I don't want to wait for weizen to clean up - I wanna drink it early.

I got fed up with cleaning up (16L in a 25L fermenter and it was still making a mess) so I underpitched one, it struggled a bit and the krausen stayed under the gladwrap for the first time ever - no sulphur and massive banana cake flavour.

Now I always under pitch 3068 (I've always fermented at slightly over 20C).

 

[Fourstar]

Excuse the ignorance (my knowledge is fairly basic with yeast), but aren't sulphur smells normally caused by yeast autolysis? I would have thought that it would be an indicator of either viability or fermentation outside of preferred temperature range (temp range seems okay to me though)

In some instances sulfer can be the sign of stressing yeast (underpitching with lagers) or an infection coming on (hence why im going to taste it tonight.) Some yeasts also typically exhibit sulfer notes, e.g. Kolsch yasts.

Autolysis = vegemite or other rotten yest derived flavours. I also notice a dirty muddy astringency as well with autolysis. Some would also say fecal matter. :icon_drool2:

or is that :icon_vomit:

 

[Pennywise]

Nick, try fermenting at 17-18 if you want less bannana. I ferment most of my 3068's at 20-21 because I like the bannana but will be doing one for a comp soon and will be fermenting at 18 to balance it out a bit more. Might help with the sulphur too

 

[Fourstar]

In my experience 3068 produces sulphur when overpitched. If the krausen is trying to get out of the fermenter, it'll be sulphury, I've had one that was still a bit whiffy in the bottle and I don't want to wait for weizen to clean up - I wanna drink it early.
I got fed up with cleaning up (16L in a 25L fermenter and it was still making a mess) so I underpitched one, it struggled a bit and the krausen stayed under the gladwrap for the first time ever - no sulphur and massive banana cake flavour.
Now I always under pitch 3068 (I've always fermented at slightly over 20C).

Funny, wyeast actually recommend slightly underpitching this strain, especially when repitching on their commercial yeast pitching rates/recommendation page (i assume this is a tad less than 6million cells per ml of wort which is their normal rates for 1.050OG ales).

My calculations using the typical 750,000 * 23L * deg P gives me around 9.3million cells per ml. 30-40% more than wyeast recommend as their base rate.

Either way, if shes not infected i'll be doing a 500ml stepup. assuming im at around 1 smack pack at the moment, that will get me on the ballpark of the 9million cells range. If its around the size of 1/2 a smack pack, i'll be on course to around 6million cells. which is closer to wyeasts recommendation.

 

[Weizguy]

I have experienced similar issues with W3638 (Wyeast Bavarian wheat yeast).
You should taste beer from the starter before considering pitching.
I have thrown the yeast out if it's not producing the right flavours.

Weizen yeasts are recommended to be be used only 2-3 times if not top-cropping.

Currently fermenting a weizen with W3638 that produced the right flavours in the starter.
Hope to do well in a comp with it, but no point counting my chickens b4 they hatch

 

[Fourstar]

I have experienced similar issues with W3638 (Wyeast Bavarian wheat yeast).
You should taste beer from the starter before considering pitching.
I have thrown the yeast out if it's not producing the right flavours.

Glad you chimed in les! :icon_cheers:

Im building it up rom a slant so the culutres as pure as i can get it. At this point i dont think its infected and was smelling normal up until this point but anything can happen i guess. I'll be having a taster tonight to see where it stands. if its just sulfury i guess i'll decant and get it going on the stirplate again and see if it throws anything else abnormal. Hopefully by bedtime it should be mighty active and tell me wether or not its going to be sulfur laden or typical aromas as expected with weizen yeasts.

I did a little reading before, even braukiaser (braukaiser.com) has reported sulfur production from this strain with adequate pitching rates. hmmmm, it might be something typical of this strain.

 

[Dazza_devil]

I have experienced similar issues with W3638 (Wyeast Bavarian wheat yeast).
You should taste beer from the starter before considering pitching.
I have thrown the yeast out if it's not producing the right flavours.

Weizen yeasts are recommended to be be used only 2-3 times if not top-cropping.

Currently fermenting a weizen with W3638 that produced the right flavours in the starter.
Hope to do well in a comp with it, but no point counting my chickens b4 they hatch

My last WY3638 threw sulphur big time. The starter smelled fine but around a couple of days into fermentation it started to pong. After 2 weeks in the fermenter the sulphur had almost dispersed and beer ended up OK after a month or so in the bottle.
This thread has me a bit worried about the viablilty of my samples of 3638 that were taken from a starter built from the smackpack around 8 months ago. Since the last one threw sulphur perhaps it's time for a fresh smackpack. I hoped to be putting in a hefe within the next couple of weeks using a starter built from my stored samples but a fresh pack is beginning to look like a safer option. Sulphur in a Weizenbock ferment is one thing but in a hefe, that's another.
A healthy looking, smelling and tasting starter isn't going to guarantee a sulphurless ferment so I'm not sure if my sample caused the last pong or underpitching was the culprit.

 

[white.grant]

Typically I reuse the yeast from a single smack pack of 3068 5-6 times, typically I brew 2-3 hefes, then a dunkel, followed by a weizenbock and then a gose. I get some subtle but detectable sulphur on the first and sometimes second pitches, after that it's much cleaner.

cheers

grant

 

[Weizguy]

Glad you chimed in les! :icon_cheers:

Im building it up rom a slant so the culutres as pure as i can get it. At this point i dont think its infected and was smelling normal up until this point but anything can happen i guess. I'll be having a taster tonight to see where it stands. if its just sulfury i guess i'll decant and get it going on the stirplate again and see if it throws anything else abnormal. Hopefully by bedtime it should be mighty active and tell me wether or not its going to be sulfur laden or typical aromas as expected with weizen yeasts.

I did a little reading before, even braukiaser (braukaiser.com) has reported sulfur production from this strain with adequate pitching rates. hmmmm, it might be something typical of this strain.

You will find that sulfur seems to be produced to the exclusion of esters.

funky weirdo weizen yeasts

 

[Fourstar]

You will find that sulfur seems to be produced to the exclusion of esters.

funky weirdo weizen yeasts

but i was getting weizen characters early. Hmm, so you recon sulfur will continue and no weizen esters? Or they are simply masked by rotten eggs? :icon_cheers:

 

[Nick JD]

but i was getting weizen characters early. Hmm, so you recon sulfur will continue and no weizen esters? Or they are simply masked by rotten eggs? :icon_cheers:

I've found underpitching produces mega banana more so than playing with temperature and I agree that more sulphur = less banana ester.

At a guess, less oxygen might also help. I think 3068 likes to be slapped around a bit.

 

[Fourstar]

I've found underpitching produces mega banana more so than playing with temperature and I agree that more sulphur = less banana ester.
At a guess, less oxygen might also help. I think 3068 likes to be slapped around a bit.

The problem is im after clove, not banana. Stressing the yeast something i want to avoid if i can so the worlds most gentle pour from a cube to the fermentor is out of the question. Heck i dont even think its possible! :icon_chickcheers:

I think the suck it and see approach is going to be fitting. Heck, its not like im trying to place in VICBREW or anything.

 

[Nick JD]

The problem is im after clove, not banana. Stressing the yeast something i want to avoid if i can so the worlds most gentle pour from a cube to the fermentor is out of the question. Heck i dont even think its possible! :icon_chickcheers:

I think the suck it and see approach is going to be fitting. Heck, its not like im trying to place in VICBREW or anything.

WB06 and a teaspoon of ground cloves and it tastes like licking your lips after taking a drag on a Kretek cigarette.

 

[manticle]

Which sounds horrible. Clove esters in a wheat beer are dry, subtle and refreshing. Ground clove sounds like it would be a bit mouth puckering and my memories of kreteks are unpleasant. Smelling them now makes me want to gag.

I know my last hefe (while ago now fourstar) had a balance of clove and banana (someone also picked a bit of pineapple in it). Not sure which bit contributed to it - single decoction, ferulic acid rest and regular pitching amount, fermented at 17 degrees so rest steps, ferment temps, decoction or combo of any of those.

I'm sure les or zwickel will know the low down on getting the yeast to give up its lovely, clovey secrets.

Can't remember if mine gave much sulphur (and think I'd remember if it did) - virgin 3068 from smack pack built into some kind of starter (probably - I rarely pitch straight from smack pack but can't remember)