3068 Starter - Sulfur Central

[Nick JD]

Which sounds horrible.

Different strokes, Mantickle. It's actually quite nice if you love cloves and that smell of Indo.

I find myself brewing hefes now for tangy banana. 3068 is a doozy at that.

 

[manticle]

Different strokes, Mantickle.

Appreciate that. Just pretty sure that 4 star is wanting to use his current starter of 3068 to push esters so adding clove and using a completely different yeast seems a bit off base.

 

[Fourstar]

Different strokes, Mantickle. It's actually quite nice if you love cloves and that smell of Indo.

I find myself brewing hefes now for tangy banana. 3068 is a doozy at that.

If i wanted an analgesic with my beer i'd simply pop a few codeine.

* Havnt you heard of the bloke who dumped a whole jar of cloves into his stout wort when he heard 3-4 wasnt enough. Ended up drinking a pint and couldn't get off his chair!


* urban legend but would be pretty funny!

 

[pk.sax]

If i wanted an analgesic with my beer i'd simply pop a few codeine.

* Havnt you heard of the bloke who dumped a whole jar of cloves into his stout wort when he heard 3-4 wasnt enough. Ended up drinking a pint and couldn't get off his chair!


* urban legend but would be pretty funny!

ROFLMAO.. I just laughed hard.. and it hurts cuz I'm sick... lol... this place gets better every beer.

 

[Fourstar]

ROFLMAO.. I just laughed hard.. and it hurts cuz I'm sick... lol... this place gets better every beer.

The first time i read that i had to go and get the spray and wipe to clean up the mess all over the desk. :icon_cheers:

beer out your nose is bad Mmmmkay!

anyway, the starter still stinks but tastes like a typical weizen. i dumped the fermented liquid and added 500ml of fresh wort. the yeast looked really clean. think dense and chalk white. seems really healthy to me. im hoping it starts as i expect and come tomorrow arvo if it smells like eggs, i'll be visiting G&G for a fresh smackpack. Lets hope she's good.

 

[Nick JD]

The first time i read that i had to go and get the spray and wipe to clean up the mess all over the desk. :icon_cheers:

beer out your nose is bad Mmmmkay!

anyway, the starter still stinks but tastes like a typical weizen. i dumped the fermented liquid and added 500ml of fresh wort. the yeast looked really clean. think dense and chalk white. seems really healthy to me. im hoping it starts as i expect and come tomorrow arvo if it smells like eggs, i'll be visiting G&G for a fresh smackpack. Lets hope she's good.

You'll be dumping healthy yeast ... a starter by definition is a massive overpitch!

 

[pk.sax]

You'll be dumping healthy yeast ... a starter by definition is a massive overpitch!

would adding nutrient to starters have an effect on the quality of yeast gotten (and sulphur smells)?

I ask because when I used some of the EB-1118 wine yeast on a small batch of cider, I just used a tiny amount of yeast and made a smallish starter (more of rehydrating it than growing it). The end result was a very sulphuric smelling cider that cleared right up if I let the glass stand half a minute.

At the same time, some of that yeast infected a clean new bottle of apple juice on bottling day and THAT one has a far lower sulphuric smell which actually cleared out the first time I opened the bottle after 8-9 days. Guessing there was just enough nutrient in there for the tiny amt of yeast that slipped in and since this one was pasteurized juice, there were NO competing yeasts.... could very much be a factor.

 

[AndrewQLD]

A good way to get strong clove in your Weizen is a 42 Ferulic acid rest for 15 minutes followed by a 55 protein rest and then your Sacch rest as usual.
I stopped using the ferulic acid rest as the clove was just too strong for my taste.

Andrew

 

[manticle]

would adding nutrient to starters have an effect on the quality of yeast gotten (and sulphur smells)?

I ask because when I used some of the EB-1118 wine yeast on a small batch of cider, I just used a tiny amount of yeast and made a smallish starter (more of rehydrating it than growing it). The end result was a very sulphuric smelling cider that cleared right up if I let the glass stand half a minute.

At the same time, some of that yeast infected a clean new bottle of apple juice on bottling day and THAT one has a far lower sulphuric smell which actually cleared out the first time I opened the bottle after 8-9 days. Guessing there was just enough nutrient in there for the tiny amt of yeast that slipped in and since this one was pasteurized juice, there were NO competing yeasts.... could very much be a factor.

Cider pushes sulphur production anyway in my experience - more so if you use sulphites (for obvious reasons) but even without. Conditioning in secondary and cold conditioning have been more than enough for me to remove it in non sulphited versions. Sulphites are devil's dung anyway.

Not sure I agree with Nick's definition of a starter as a massive overpitch but I could be wrong.

@Andrew QLD - I did the ferulic acid rest for the one I mentioned so that's probably the key.

 

[Fourstar]

You'll be dumping healthy yeast ... a starter by definition is a massive overpitch!

qu? :blink:

and a non starter/using 1/5th of a smackpack is a surefire way to stress the yeast and produce unwanted esters.

i'd prefer the starter.

 

[AndrewQLD]

@Andrew QLD - I did the ferulic acid rest for the one I mentioned so that's probably the key.

Ahh, sorry Manticle I missed that, it certainly does increase the clovey phenols.

Andrew

 

[manticle]

No need to be sorry - your post clarified why mine worked out with a good clove balance.

I remember reading about it at the time which is why I did it (may have also got some advice from zwickel and I think Screwtop) but not being a regular brewer of weizens I can only remember the process and results rather than all the whys and wherefores.

 

[Nick JD]

qu? :blink:

and a non starter/using 1/5th of a smackpack is a surefire way to stress the yeast and produce unwanted esters.

i'd prefer the starter.

Do the yeast know they are in a starter? Did you put a sign on the side saying, "Don't worry about the overcrowding fellas, this is only the first step! Next, when there's twice as many of you, I'll jame you into some fresh sugaz and you can crowd up again."

Then you step it up and again they are experiencing a massive overpitch, hence the sulphur. 2c.

I'm not saying don't make a starter, I'm not sure how you came to that. What I'm getting at is that by chucking a starter because it's sulphury when your starter is full of 3068 might be a bit nuts...

Your yeast though. And feel free to read my post really quickly and misinterpret it.

 

[manticle]

I can understand how pitching a full smack pack into 1 or 2 L of 1040 wort might be overpitching but how is stepping up from a slant overpitching (which is the case here)?

Easy to misinterpret your post if you don't bother to explain it and you suggested that making a starter (no qualification offered) was massive overpitching.

How is making a starter from a slant overpitching? (slowly please because I'm a bit thick)

Additionally the wyeast website suggests that low pitching rates are more likely to result in volatile sulphur compounds being produced than overpitching (everything from low ester formation/clean to autolysis but no sulphur) which seems to counter your suggestion.

 

[Fourstar]

Additionally the wyeast website suggests that low pitching rates are more likely to result in volatile sulphur compounds being produced than overpitching (everything from low ester formation/clean to autolysis but no sulphur) which seems to counter your suggestion.

Well i had a whiff this monring, still eggy but no where near as bad as it was. ive left it on the plate and will assess the situation tonight. that will give it 24 hours, by then it should be built up as high as the cell count will go and enough time for any extra sulfur to build up.



Nick,

No misinterpretation here. Get off your soapbox buddy. The yeast is fresh, probabaly at 99% viability and have been stepped up as they should be. There should be minimal 'overcrowding' and a starter is the ideal environment for yeast to grow 'healthily'. With the temperatures im growing them at, the gravity of the wort and the oxygen they are recieving there should be no reason for it to throw the excessive sulfur im experiencing unless of course its typical of this yeast whcih may be a possibilty from the reviews ive been reading.

Ive had less sulfur in a starter for lager yeasts than this which is why i posted said thread.

Ive been doing starters from slants for 18 months or so now. Probably the only thing thats lacking in my process is no yeast nutrient but i do add a touch of Ca to the wort.

What i was pointing at was if i simply pulled the yeast off the stirplate after one stepup, i'd proabably be pitching 1/2 or less of a smackpack into 23L of 1.048 gravity wort.

Using my typical pitching rates and those figures above, that SHOULD be around 9 million cells/ml ballpark fogure.

If im pitching 1/2 a smack pack, thats 2.17~million cells/ml. Thats 4 times an underpitch. There is pitching low and then there is underpitching. What you're suggesting is underpitching which in ALL circumstances translates into bad practice which im not looking to do.

if youre after repteatable, high quality results you pitch as recommended. if you're after hard to repeat results, you underpitch.

 

[Dazza_devil]

What about overpitching, any complications with that?
I tend to not be anal about how many million cells I have and just pitch a shitload of yeast. Big jobs get 4 litre starters and little jobs get 2litre starters. It's worked so far except for my Weizenbock, which is still drinkable, nearly drunk in fact.
It does however appear that these Wheat yeasts are more succeptable to pitching rates than other yeasts.

 

[Fourstar]

What about overpitching, any complications with that?
I tend to not be anal about how many million cells I have and just pitch a shitload of yeast. Big jobs get 4 litre starters and little jobs get 2litre starters. It's worked so far except for my Weizenbock, which is still drinkable, nearly drunk in fact.
It does however appear that these Wheat yeasts are more succeptable to pitching rates than other yeasts.

overpitching is generally only an issue when repitching unhealthy/dead yeast. autolysis is one thing you dont want in your beer. a surefire way to get that is pitching excessive amounts of slurry

 

[Nick JD]

Well i had a whiff this monring, still eggy but no where near as bad as it was. ive left it on the plate and will assess the situation tonight. that will give it 24 hours, by then it should be built up as high as the cell count will go and enough time for any extra sulfur to build up.



Nick,

No misinterpretation here. Get off your soapbox buddy. The yeast is fresh, probabaly at 99% viability and have been stepped up as they should be. There should be minimal 'overcrowding' and a starter is the ideal environment for yeast to grow 'healthily'. With the temperatures im growing them at, the gravity of the wort and the oxygen they are recieving there should be no reason for it to throw the excessive sulfur im experiencing unless of course its typical of this yeast whcih may be a possibilty from the reviews ive been reading.

Ive had less sulfur in a starter for lager yeasts than this which is why i posted said thread.

Ive been doing starters from slants for 18 months or so now. Probably the only thing thats lacking in my process is no yeast nutrient but i do add a touch of Ca to the wort.

What i was pointing at was if i simply pulled the yeast off the stirplate after one stepup, i'd proabably be pitching 1/2 or less of a smackpack into 23L of 1.048 gravity wort.

Using my typical pitching rates and those figures above, that SHOULD be around 9 million cells/ml ballpark fogure.

If im pitching 1/2 a smack pack, thats 2.17~million cells/ml. Thats 4 times an underpitch. There is pitching low and then there is underpitching. What you're suggesting is underpitching which in ALL circumstances translates into bad practice which im not looking to do.

if youre after repteatable, high quality results you pitch as recommended. if you're after hard to repeat results, you underpitch.

Let me explain my point very slowly. When you put 1/5 of a smack pack into 500ml of wort ... that is an OVERPITCH, your starter (not your eventual fermenter pitch) is experiencing overpitching. Then you step it up and again, in your starter you are experienceing overpitching. The symptoms of overpitching with 3068 are sulphur - hence your smelly starter.

Again, just so it's clear what I'm trying really, really hard to get across ... putting millions of cells into 500ml of wort IS OVERPITCHING. MAKING starters is by definition AN OVERPITCH - again, not when you put the starter in the fermenter, but when you add 1/5 of a smackpack to 500ml of wort.

:blink: Sometimes you brainy guys are a bit fick.

 

[Dazza_devil]

Perhaps overpitching with 3638 is a completely different kettle of fish then.
I pitched a full smack pack into a 1 litre starter, decanted, took some samples, built the remaining slurry up to 2 litres and then pitched it at high krausen after a feeding the starter slurry with some dunkleweissen batch wort.
No sulphur at all, at any stage of the process.
The finished beer had a lovely hint of banana, slight bubblegum and a bit of nice spicey clove in the finish.

 

[manticle]

Let me explain my point very slowly. When you put 1/5 of a smack pack into 500ml of wort ... that is an OVERPITCH, your starter (not your eventual fermenter pitch) is experiencing overpitching. Then you step it up and again, in your starter you are experienceing overpitching. The symptoms of overpitching with 3068 are sulphur - hence your smelly starter.

Again, just so it's clear what I'm trying really, really hard to get across ... putting millions of cells into 500ml of wort IS OVERPITCHING. MAKING starters is by definition AN OVERPITCH - again, not when you put the starter in the fermenter, but when you add 1/5 of a smackpack to 500ml of wort.

:blink: Sometimes you brainy guys are a bit fick.

Maybe you should read slower Nick.

From the first post:

slant vial and shake, 24-48hours or once activity has ceased, i dump this into 200ml of wort on the stirplate for 24 hours then topup to 400ml. Once this ferments out i crash chill, decant and stepup as required.

(ive had to modify my stepups because my erlenmyers got smashed and im using a fowels varcola jar. i used to go 50ml, 200ml, 700ml)

Im now at the 400ml stage

Not 1/5th of a smack pack directly into 500mL wort. Have you seen a slant? Pretty small amount of yeast.

From the Wyeast website:

Effect of Pitch Rate on Beer Flavor
Pitch rates, in addition to strain, temperature, and gravity, make a dramatic difference in the final flavor and aroma profile of any beer. The pitch rate will have a direct effect on the amount of cell growth during a fermentation. Cell growth decreases as pitch rates increase. Ester production is directly related to yeast growth as are most other flavor and aroma compounds.

A low pitch rate can lead to:

• Excess levels of diacetyl
• Increase in higher/fusel alcohol formation
• Increase in ester formation
• Increase in volatile sulfur compounds
• High terminal gravities
• Stuck fermentations
• Increased risk of infection

High pitch rates can lead to:

• Very low ester production
• Very fast fermentations
• Thin or lacking body/mouthfeel
• Autolysis (Yeasty flavors due to lysing of cells)

With some beer styles, where a complex ester profile is desirable (German Wheat) it can be beneficial to under pitch. Over pitching can often lead to a very clean beer lacking an ester profile (banana). This is a common problem with subsequent generations of Wyeast's Weihenstephan Weizen #3068. Conversely, beers that require a clean profile should be pitched an an increased rate.

I cannot for the life of me work out why, if a starter BY DEFINITION (therefore always regardless of step up procedures etc) is a massive overpitch, that this doesn't seem to be more common knowledge. There are recommended step up rates for propagation and I grant most people (myself included) may not always follow this. If throwing a whole smack pack into 1 L of wort then yes - that would be an overpitch. The few cells from a slant into 200mL though?

I suck at counting yeast cells so I'll accept that I'm possibly wrong but it is not making sense currently and your explanation so far has little to back it up besides an assertion that seems at odds with other information at hand.

I don't think anyone thought you were talking about the whole beer by the way.