20l Stovetop All Grain Aussie Lager

[Nick JD]

So you an get back a couple of % efficiency basically for free.

Great advice, Thirsty. Will do.

It breaks my heart to leave that super-concentrated wort in between those "brains" at the bottom of the pot. I heard Bribie say that he often strains it to remove the break and uses it to make a starter - I might also try that, but am not sure how to strain it. I wonder if voile would contain the break?

When I'm doing normal-gravity brewing with this method I even leave the cold break behind - only clear wort goes into the fermenter, but this method the cold break goes in or that's even more sugaz left behind.

EDIT: if I could get some (assured) clean ice and dump in 8L of it into the 11L of 100C wort in the pot ... I could probably pitch straight away. Now that would be a rapid chilling method :beerbang:.

 

[Nick JD]

Another method that I think some of the breweries round the world do, that would work in this situation is to ferment high-gravity.

Using a little fermenter and not diluting, you could ferment out the 1.078 SG wort with (probably need more, and definately healthy) yeast ending up with something like an 8% beer at bottling.

Then it's just a matter of priming, half-filling your bottles and topping up with cooled boiled water. Certainly an option if you have limited fridge space, and probably a great option for making mid-strength or light-strength beers.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

If you try and dilute post fermentation, you run into issues with oxygen - big breweries do dilute post fermentation, but they dilute with de-oxygenated water. You also get different fermentation characteristics with high gravity fermentations. Its perhaps doable... and maybe you might try if you really didn't have space for a bigger fermenter. But the more you try to squeeze lots of beer out of less equipment - the more likely you are to get to the point where the trade offs you make result in a lower quality result. Take it to its ultimate and what you end up with is a tin of goo....

I've regularly filtered my trub to re-use as a starter. You just filter it through a tea towel. If its cold and you muck about with it... you really need to re-boil it anyway if you pan to use it for a starter, so there is no need to be careful with sanitation... filter it through any old thing and re-boil it quickly to zap the bugs. You can freeze it after filtering it.. and do the re-boil at a later date when you want to use it.

 

[Nick JD]

I've done the dilution at bottling with cooled boiled water before and haven't noticed any ill effects, but I will add that I don't often have a bottle older than 6 weeks that hasn't been filtered by my liver and kidneys and flushed.

If the water is de-oxygenated by boiling and is introduced into the bottle in the same method as the beer (into a bottle with 20% O2 in it) why would it introduce any more oxygen than the beer would?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Well you just said it, if its de-oxygenated by boiling - you have helped the issue, as long as you have been careful to not re-oxygenate it in the process.

The beer has a low level of oxygen because it is basically saturated with C02 - the water has its own dissolved oxygen.. thats the issue. If you were for instance to put boiling water in a keg, flush it out with C02 and lightly carbonate it... that would be de-oxygenated water which you could use without any real issue. Otherwise the water is going to pick up O2, or have its own pre-dissolved O2, which is going to reduce the shelf life of your beer.

If the shelf life of your beer is never going to be an issue - then its not an issue. Me - I regularly have beers around for 6 months or more so it matters.

Strokes, Folks, Different. Just flagging the issue so you are aware it exists.

 

[RdeVjun]

Congratz Nick on rolling your guide out! I've been doing this sort of stove- top BIAB/ dunk sparge + over- gravity boil for a while now, it works just fine and I'm pleased to see other folks coming to the same conclusion. It makes brilliant AG beer with easily- obtained and cheap equipment, plus, even with the smaller kettle, the batch size can be on par with other methods, but the risks involved with this are quite minimal (just the smaller stockpot and BIAB bag) compared to setting up even a basic traditional multi- vessel system, so more folks do have AG as an option to try out and it won't be risking the farm if they find it just isn't for them.
FWIW, I actually have a couple of legitimately- owned stainless firkins that I has grand plans for in a multi- vessel setup, but this stovetop method works just fine for me so I still use it and advocate others do the same.

I've also done a few post- ferment dilutions, I agree completely with TB- unless fermenter volume is a limiting factor then it really isn't worthwhile for the risks involved plus the extra PITA. By all means try it, but I found there wasn't any great benefit. Flavour from high- gravity fermentation was slightly different, not better or worse, just slightly different. Bottling a few of the undiluted beer gives you a couple of extra- strong variants of the batch which are useful for comparison, though after a couple of tallies of it I had to have a brief spell lying down!

I also harvest the last few hundred ml of wort from the boil gunk for yeast starters, just about any cloth would do as a filter but I use a cone of material that is for running cooking oil through to rejuvenate it, fits in a large sieve but also a funnel. Dilute (or not) and freeze in a plastic bottle, then when needed just thaw and transfer to a tough glass bottle for steaming and sanitising prior to inoculation.

 

[johnyb]

Thanks Nick. I am about to do my first BIAB this weekend, and your wonderful post has only added to my confidence to go forward. I do appreciate your time and effort.

John

 

[aaronpetersen]

EDIT: if I could get some (assured) clean ice and dump in 8L of it into the 11L of 100C wort in the pot ... I could probably pitch straight away. Now that would be a rapid chilling method :beerbang: .

I do that all the time for cooling extract brews. I just use plain old tap water that I freeze in tupperware containers. Sure does cool the wort fast.

 

[Nick JD]

I forgot to show how to make your stovetop beer crystal clear. The method for fining beer varies a lot - this is the way I do it, but not the only, or best way. It works for me.

When the beer has reached Final Gravity the temperature is upped to 20C (for a lager like this) for a couple of days so the yeast eats the diacetyl. Then it's brought back down to 10C and gelatin is added like this:

In a pot about half a cup of tap water is poured in.

Then about this much cooking gelatine from the supermarket (maybe a teaspoon and a half) is added to the water and swirled a bit. It's left for a few minutes to settle in and dissolve.

Then the stove is turned to a medium heat (don't want to see too many bubbles rising) and the thermometer is added to make sure we don't go over 75C.

When it reaches 75C the pot's taken off the heat and left to stand for a minute or two. Then I just pour it into the fermenter and wait two days at 10C ... when we can add the Polyclar.

 

[Nick JD]

That's the suspended yeast made to clump (flocculate) and fall into the sediment - now the polyphenols (chill haze).

Polyclar doesn't really need any pictures. I just add 4g of it to a half cup of boiling water and stir it with a spoon for about 5 minutes reasonably vigouously. You're supposed to stir it for donkey's years, but I don't and it still seems to work.

I add it to the 10C fermenter and bottle the next day. My lagers are crystal clear at 4C using this method.

Here's a bottle from this brew that I bottled yesterday. The gelatin works a treat - and there's about a 2mm layer of yeast at the bottom. It's got a week or two to carbonate and I'll take a photo of the finished product in a cold glass.

 

[peterhop]

Thanks Nick - I have been inspired by your AG for 30 bucks thread.

I decided to move up to 20 L on a stovetop by getting a second kettle (cheap big W 17 L SS pot). Each pot BIABs about 9 L of wort.

 

[MarkBastard]

Nick I think you just sold me on gelatine and polyclar (though to be fair I was half-sold already)

 

[Nick JD]

Here's the final product in a schooner.

It could be a little bit more carbonated (should be hunky-dory in another week) but it's tasting great - dead ringer for a Carlton - somewhere around Carlton Draft flavour-wise, but a tad sweeter (which might be some of the carbonation sugar still unfermented). I'm guessing around 5.0% alc. Remember to take into account the 0.5% that the carbonation sugar adds if you're not kegging - and also if your mates are drinking a couple at your place and then driving.

As you can see, a 1 micron filter wouldn't take anything out of it. This is at about 5-6C. The bottle was still crystal clear at 4C. When your mates drink this and find out it's 15c a schooner, $50 says the next thing they ask you is to teach them how to do it . It's a good idea to teach your mates for two reasons: firstly, they won't always be drinking your beer; and secondly, you can drink theirs. Heh heh.

Cheers.

 

[Aus_Rider_22]

Awesome thread! My next order from Ross will include some grain for my first BIAB!

 

[antains]

I just got back from Big W with a 19l stockpot and wanted to clarify the process. I found your AG for $30 thread and now this one.

It's good to read a clear description with some pics to help demonstrate the process.

Thanks and cheers,
Ant. :icon_cheers:

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

I did my first AG brew a couple of weeks ago using a 19L pot on the stove. I used the 9L guide but applied it to a 20L brew. The issue was, I had rubbish efficiency, because the lower water to grain ratio does affect the efficiency. I found this guide after (typical) and it made a point that sparging would be good.

So when I ran another brew through on sunday, I used a pasta strainer into a 8L pot. I used water at 78 degrees (about 6L worth, 4.5L in the first wash and 1.5 in the second), used the rubber gloves and squeezed before sparge, sparged with 4.5L and squeezed again and then 1.5L to get the remnants out.

I found that, even though I had to water down the wort to fill out the required quantity, I had far better efficiency.

I mashed for 90 minutes, did the above and boiled for 90 minutes. The difference was very significant.

I think if I'm going to do a 20L batch in future, I'll half all ingredients and use the 2 pots ($11.98 at big W this week) to mash each half and then boil it down. I think it will be the most efficient I can be without much effort (and will reduce the possibility of spillovers on the stove, which I had on the weekend.

 

[jakub76]

Hey Nick_JD, great post. You're original AG for $30 convinced me, it was a great bridge between extract and AG. Full volume on your stove top is a top achievement.

How much actual alcohol (volume) would be created by adding 400g of sugar? If we knew that we could work out how that added to say 20 litres of beer with a gravity of say 1.012 would affect it.

I've punched the numbers into BrewPal and it seems 400g of cane sugar into 20L would yield 0.7% alcohol by volume = 140ml. So 140ml of alcohol at an SG of 0.790 - will it thin your beer out? There's some other formula someone else can punch in I'm sure but I would agree with MCT that sugar is used to thin a beer out by replacing some of the malt bill.

 

[Nick JD]

400g of sugar is quite a lot - especially if you are going to add another 200g or so, for bottle carbing.

I reckon 250g of sugar is fine for an Aussie Lager, it actually should be there to remain faithful to the style. Probably best to take out maybe 400g of grain if you are going to add 250g of sugar.

I didn't want to add sugar to this because I wanted to show you could get a full strength beer without it at 20L on the stove - but I often add a bit of dextrose to my beers.

As always, it's your recipe.

 

[KGB]

Awesome thread! My next order from Ross will include some grain for my first BIAB!

Same here, in the last week I have grabbed my $11.98 stock pot, $5 of voile (which got me a $hitload) and my $19.99 Aldi coffee grinder.
Great stuff Nick, well done.

 

[technoicon]

i was just doing this method but used a magic bullet type device instead. it looks like my grain is to fine now. if i hold it up in the biab bag, then i can sprinkle it like you would flour, is this correct?
I'm about to see how it goes with 2 biab bags.

is this fine for some of the grain to fall into the mash, will it disolve? or will there be heaps of crap in the bottom. dont really want to have to leave heaps of crud on the bottom when putting it in the fermenter.