20+ Year Old Barley Wine

[RetsamHsam]

Hi All,

I have a 1 year old boy and another due in June. I want to brew them each a big barley wine for when they come of age..

I'm thinking of brewing a British for one of them and an American for the other. Will probably aim for about 12 percent ABV and 100 IBU for each of them.

My questions are;

1. What is the longest anyone has cellared a beer for? Is 20 years too long?

2. I currently only have plastic fermenters and have heard that these strong beers need a long secondary ferment, will I need to invest in glass (I think I already know the answer to this one)

3. Should I aim for a higher IBU seeing as they won't be sampled for a very long time?

Any other tips/suggestions would be welcome..

I have a recipe I am working on (on my work computer) which I will upload tomorrow for critique...

 

[Guest Lurker]

To taste like an American, the American one needs to be drunk relatively early, after 20 years there is going to be only malt and oxidation and bitterness left, not much hop flavour and aroma, so maybe no need to do 2 different.

100 IBU is about right.

You can do it without a glass carboy.

 

[clean brewer]

Check out Millenium Ale Project

Very interesting, I was going to do a 25 year one and drink 1 every year for the next 25years.. Planned on Waxing the tops of the bottles aswell..

 

[marlow_coates]

A few hints:

Get good thick glass bottles.

I would go with corks, with wax seal and tie down wire, as crown seals can rust.

You will need somewhere that you can cellar it for that long that probably isn't too warm (less than 20C year round would be good if you can get it)

Don't sweat too much about plastic fermenters. Though I am no barley wine expert, I have had high alcohol beers for 2 months + in a regular fermenter during secondary with no adverse effects.

I don't see why 20 years is too long. Read an article on here recently regarding a stock of beer from WWII era?? and they had a good tasting session, concluding that they were still good beers.

And last of all you will need some serious resolve not to just try one every now and then. Just think of 30 tallies in the cellar, you put all that effort in, you only want to try one or two a year, the kids probably won't appreciate them anyway.......

Best of luck though and top idea.

 

[Bribie G]

Check out Millenium Ale Project

Very interesting, I was going to do a 25 year one and drink 1 every year for the next 25years.. Planned on Waxing the tops of the bottles aswell..

At my age I should do a similar brew and call it 'funeral ale' as I'll be drinking one at my funeral for sure

You raise an interesting point about sealing the bottles, crown caps would look pretty feral after 25 years, I wonder if bottling in champagne style bottles with corks and then waxing might be the go.

 

[unterberg]

There was this find of ales from around 1860 or so in London. Cant find the link atm.
Had a interesting taste to it when they were sampled. But there were some wine guys involved so who knows.
Those bottles were apparently stored fairly cold ~ 6-8C from memory.

 

[glennheinzel]

If you're open to brewing another style, a Russian Imperial Stout would be a good choice. Here is a link to a story where they tried a variety of "vintages" (including a 72 year old RIS).
http://www.alestreetonline.com/content/view/194/45/

 

[fraser_john]

At my age I should do a similar brew and call it 'funeral ale' as I'll be drinking one at my funeral for sure

You raise an interesting point about sealing the bottles, crown caps would look pretty feral after 25 years, I wonder if bottling in champagne style bottles with corks and then waxing might be the go.

Even corks can get pretty feral after that long, unless its super high quality cork! Substitute for those plastic champagne corks might be the go!

 

[kirem]

I would steer away from cork and go with crown seal.

Even the highest quality cork are a far cry from the near sure bet of screw cap or crown seal.

I have had a few Thomas Hardy's Ale around that age, very interesting beers.

 

[dr K]

Oxygen is going to the killer here.
So why not accept that and brew a lambic, read up on turbid mashing first, because you are probably best to use that style, feel free to PM me if you like, I may be of some assistance, on the other hand I may not look at my PM stuff for weeks or even months so do not expect instant replies....oh , in 21 years time you may well have developed a taste for lambic.

K

 

[RetsamHsam]

To taste like an American, the American one needs to be drunk relatively early, after 20 years there is going to be only malt and oxidation and bitterness left, not much hop flavour and aroma, so maybe no need to do 2 different.

100 IBU is about right.

You can do it without a glass carboy.

This got me thinking, I recently brewed an APA with an IBU of 38. I added all of my hops in the last 15 minutes which resulted in massive hop flavour and aroma, maybe if I use the same technique here to reach 100+ IBU I may be left with some hop flavour/aroma by the time 2030 rolls around... What do you think?

Check out Millenium Ale Project

Very interesting, I was going to do a 25 year one and drink 1 every year for the next 25years.. Planned on Waxing the tops of the bottles aswell..

Yeah this was one of the first things I read when I started home brewing, a very interesting read..

If you're open to brewing another style, a Russian Imperial Stout would be a good choice. Here is a link to a story where they tried a variety of "vintages" (including a 72 year old RIS).
http://www.alestreetonline.com/content/view/194/45/

I'm not a big fan of Stout, so I think I will stick with the Barley Wine. Thanks all the same..

Oxygen is going to the killer here.

These were my thoughts, which is why I thought it would be advisable to rack to a glass carboy for secondary..


The talk about corks/crown seals/plastic corks is something to think about.. What if I capped with crown seals and coated them in wax, would that stop rust from developing??

And yeah, heavy duty bottles will have to be the go, as someone previously posted.

 

[Muggus]

What if I capped with crown seals and coated them in wax, would that stop rust from developing??

Not sure whether or not wax seals would help...might call for some experimenting.

A big factor in rust developing on a crown seal is to do with the environment in which you store them.
You're more likely to get rust in a poorly ventilated and moist environments.

I found out the hard way by leaving some bottles of brew in a sealed brocolli (styrofoam) box, for a number of years.
3 years down the track they're bloody well almost rusted through, as opposed to other bottles of the same brew stored in a cardboard box, that only have a couple of specks of rust at worst.

 

[schooey]

Bulk buy for some stainles crown seals?...

 

[newguy]

To avoid disappointment in 20 years, keg & lightly force carbonate, then bottle. I dumped out 60+ bottles of my 3 year old BW a month ago. It never carbonated and was flat & lifeless. This way you can also cap on foam, which will minimise oxygen in the bottle.

Regarding caps & rusting, you have a couple of options. First option is to store the bottles somewhere dry and check on them every 6 months or so. Another option, if you can find zinc, is to affix (maybe glue?) a small piece of zinc to each cap. This is basically galvanisation. Another option entirely is to then dip your homemade galvanised caps in wax to then seal out oxygen. You could also try sealing the bottles in some sort of plastic bag lined airtight box with a shitload of desiccant to lock away the moisture.

I honestly don't think that rust will be much of a problem, if at all. Control moisture and you should be fine. I have an open box of crown caps that I bought about 4 years ago and there is absolutely no sign of deterioration whatsoever. Certainly no rust. Who knows how long they sat in a warehouse and on the store shelf before I bought them?

I'd recommend not using corks; they are basically impossible to sanitise and whatever organisms they introduce may spoil your hard work. Wine's pH is so low that most organisms are greatly inhibited from growing, so corks are okay but beer's pH isn't nearly low enough to guarantee it will be safe.

Another idea that just came to me: you could store the bottles in a large heavy duty, quality, plastic bag (not an ordinary garbage bag). Before sealing it you could evacuate the oxygen by throwing in a small brick of dry ice or by slowly bleeding in CO2, then seal the bag. If the bag is heat sealed you'd eliminate moisture and oxygen. You could replace the CO2 blanket or the entire bag if you wanted to once every 1, 2, or 3 or whatever years just to ensure that any oxygen that slowly bled in over time would be evacuated.

 

[Supra-Jim]

You could also try sealing the bottles in some sort of plastic bag lined airtight box with a shitload of desiccant to lock away the moisture.

Ebay vacuum food sealer and individually cryovac each bottle once you've capped it?

:icon_cheers: SJ

 

[newguy]

Ebay vacuum food sealer and individually cryovac each bottle once you've capped it?

:icon_cheers: SJ

I thought of that but putting a sealed bottle in even a low vacuum scares me. I'm worried the cap would leak.

 

[Supra-Jim]

I thought of that but putting a sealed bottle in even a low vacuum scares me. I'm worried the cap would leak.

Not so. You would have the atmospheric pressure acting on the bag, which inturn acts on the bottle. What you're thinking of (i think) would be the bottle sitting in an evacuated chamber, where you had the internal pressure of the carbonated BW pushing outwards on the bottle & cap, and no pressure acting on the outside walls of the bottle (assuming a perfect vacuum).

Vacuum bagging, simply removes the majoirity of the oxygen from a product to extent it's shelf life. You still have atmospheric pressure acting upon it externally.

:icon_cheers: SJ

 

[RetsamHsam]

Some good thoughts on storing the bottles above.. I think the most feasible idea I have heard is storing the bottles in a sealed container with some dessicant..

Here is the first draft of my recipe for the american, this is with a full boil hop addition. What are everyone's thoughts on adding all of the hops in the last 15 minutes to achieve the same IBU??

Amount Item Type % or IBU
4.00 kg TF Marris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 34.2 %
3.50 kg Weyermann Munich I (17.0 EBC) Grain 29.9 %
3.50 kg Weyermann Pilsener (3.9 EBC) Grain 29.9 %
44.00 gm Chinook [13.00%] (120 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 71.8 IBU
42.00 gm Simcoe [7.40%] (10 min) Hops 11.8 IBU
40.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (5 min) Hops 7.1 IBU
40.00 gm Saaz [2.50%] (15 min) Hops 5.2 IBU
40.00 gm Saaz [2.50%] (5 min) Hops 2.1 IBU
20.00 gm B Saaz [6.80%] (1 min) Hops 0.6 IBU
40.00 gm Saaz [2.50%] (1 min) Hops 0.5 IBU
14.06 gm Calcium Carbonate (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
0.70 kg Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 EBC) Sugar 6.0 %



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.125 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.031 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 12.4 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.6 %
Bitterness: 99.0 IBU Calories: 90 cal/l
Est Color: 25.1 EBC Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body, No Mash Out Total Grain Weight: 11.00 kg
Sparge Water: 9.09 L Grain Temperature: 22.2 C
Sparge Temperature: 75.6 C TunTemperature: 22.2 C
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Mash In Add 33.00 L of water at 70.4 C 65.0 C 60 min

 

[bconnery]

Oxygen is going to the killer here.
So why not accept that and brew a lambic, read up on turbid mashing first, because you are probably best to use that style, feel free to PM me if you like, I may be of some assistance, on the other hand I may not look at my PM stuff for weeks or even months so do not expect instant replies....oh , in 21 years time you may well have developed a taste for lambic.

K

Actually that's not a bad plan. They way I see it, if for some reason the kids don't like lambic in 20 odd years then I get extra.
I may have to ramp up the lambic production so there's enough for then as well though

 

[Guest Lurker]

Here is the first draft of my recipe for the american, this is with a full boil hop addition. What are everyone's thoughts on adding all of the hops in the last 15 minutes to achieve the same IBU??

At the risk of harping on about it I personally think that would use a lot more hops and still not achieve what you want. I have made an American BW that had an incredible fruit salad hop character at a few months, a muted hop flavour at 6 months, and minimal hop character after a year. The beer itself was fine for years, just lost the hop flavour. But hey maybe I did it wrong.

Personally I would back off the Munich. Normally you would do a long boil to up your efficiency, and it darkens in the bottle, so that a 100% pale malt barley wine comes out surprisingly dark.