1st Cubed Beer Oxygenated!

[Slurpdog]

After a normal ferment of an ale I decided to rack it into a newly acquired cube and place it into my fridge (2 deg) to wait for an empty keg.
It sat in the fridge for 3 weeks and I racked into the keg yesterday but the beer is oxidised to the point that it is undrinkable. :angry:
I'm using the 20L Willow brand upright cubes, but even though it is rated at 20L it holds a hell of a lot more and so there is a large head space above the beer.
I know heaps of you use these cubes for storage but how do you avoid the problem of oxidisation with such a large head space
Am I better off setting up the cube as a fermenter and racking out of my original fermenter before the finish of ferment so I maintain a layer of CO2 on top of the beer.
I'm thinking that this is the only alternative.
Any ideas?

 

[muga]

If there is a lot of headspace in the top of a cube, squeeze the sides so there is next to nothing then put the lid on it..

 

[pint of lager]

When you rack, zero headspace is essential in secondary.

There is no such thing as a protective layer of CO2. We are talking gases here rather than liquids. If CO2 did form a layer near the surface, it would be the same in the earth's atmosphere and we would all be dead due to trying to breath it.

What does happen in primary, is that there is so much carbon dioxide produced (about 230 litres) that it purges the headspace of all gases leaving CO2.

Some people do recommend racking before the beer has reached fg which does mean there is some purging of the headspace as CO2 is produced by the yeast. The problem here is that you are removing the beer from the yeast before it has finished fermenting which can cause problems.

The only time there is a layer of CO2 is when your beer is actively fermenting, and the layer of foam is full of CO2.

You could, if you have a keg setup and an adapter, purge the headspace of a fermenter, similar to what keggers do, when they burp a keg.

Zero headspace is also essential for the users of the no chill method.

 

[Kai]

However, I wouldn't expect 3 weeks to be sufficient to oxidise beer in secondary due to headspace alone.

 

[Ross]

I agree Kai, in that time frame & at temp, I'd suspect something else here, unless it was badly aerated during transfer...
Why's your finger pointing at oxidisation Slurpdog?

cheers Ross

 

[timmy]

The beer is saturated with co2 at the end of primary. Not enough to be called carbonated but still saturated, ie it has absorbed all the CO2 it can at a given temperature and pressure.

A protective layer will form when the beer is disturbed during racking as the movement of the fluid will force some of the co2 out.

The secondary fermenter/cube doesn't have the same air movements and weather conditions as the atmosphere we live in so all gases in the cube will settle. I used to lager 20l batches in a 25l fementer for up to 2 months with no signs of oxidation although i do use jerry cans now with minimal headspace.

I'm also not convinced that oxidation is the problem. Could it be a fresh cube that hasn't been rinsed properly, a possible infection? or a used container with some sort of residue in it? 3 weeks is pretty short for oxidation, I half filled a keg a few yrs ago when I started kegging, forgot to burp it and crash corbonated by shaking while it still had O2 in it. lasted a month without any ill effects.

wow this is the longest post ive put up in a while.

 

[Slurpdog]

I agree Kai, in that time frame & at temp, I'd suspect something else here, unless it was badly aerated during transfer...
Why's your finger pointing at oxidisation Slurpdog?

cheers Ross

The beer was definitely oxidised.
I have a background in fine dining and so am fairly conversant with wine and it's flavour characteristics, of which oxidisation is one unwanted trait (uinless your talking fortifieds in which it's preferable).
It has a flat/cardboard type of smell often referred to as a "Rancio" character and the beer definitely had this aroma about it.
I did keg and gas the beer and it tastes as flat as it smells.

 

[razz]

I like that, a fine diner named slurpdog !
PS. Not laughing at you.

 

[Slurpdog]

The beer is saturated with co2 at the end of primary. Not enough to be called carbonated but still saturated, ie it has absorbed all the CO2 it can at a given temperature and pressure.

A protective layer will form when the beer is disturbed during racking as the movement of the fluid will force some of the co2 out.

The secondary fermenter/cube doesn't have the same air movements and weather conditions as the atmosphere we live in so all gases in the cube will settle. I used to lager 20l batches in a 25l fementer for up to 2 months with no signs of oxidation although i do use jerry cans now with minimal headspace.

I'm also not convinced that oxidation is the problem. Could it be a fresh cube that hasn't been rinsed properly, a possible infection? or a used container with some sort of residue in it? 3 weeks is pretty short for oxidation, I half filled a keg a few yrs ago when I started kegging, forgot to burp it and crash corbonated by shaking while it still had O2 in it. lasted a month without any ill effects.

wow this is the longest post ive put up in a while.

Mmmm, you might be onto someting there Timmy.
It was a new cube and all I did to prep it was to rinse it in cold water and sterilise with a no rinse sanitiser.
I coudn't get the racking tube to the bottom of the cube and so it may have been the transfer that caused the problem as well.
The racking tube was pouring the beer onto the side of the cube about 1/3rd of the way up!

 

[Aaron]

I would suggest the oxidation has happened at some other point. I have had beers lager for five weeks or so in a 30l fermenter with only 23-25l of beer in there. Perhaps the oxidation occurred when you racked it? Were you careful not to let it splash etc?

 

[Slurpdog]

I like that, a fine diner named slurpdog !
PS. Not laughing at you.

lol: :lol: I've served some high flying business people who would be lucky to have better manners than a slurpy dawg!!!!!!

 

[Slurpdog]

I would suggest the oxidation has happened at some other point. I have had beers lager for five weeks or so in a 30l fermenter with only 23-25l of beer in there. Perhaps the oxidation occurred when you racked it? Were you careful not to let it splash etc?

Aaron

Did you lager the beer in the same vessel that you fermented in or did you rack it after ferment was complete?

 

[kadmium]

When you rack, zero headspace is essential in secondary.

There is no such thing as a protective layer of CO2. We are talking gases here rather than liquids. If CO2 did form a layer near the surface, it would be the same in the earth's atmosphere and we would all be dead due to trying to breath it.

Pint of beer, you obviously think that the inside of an airlocked secondary is the same as "the atmosphere" as you claim that CO2 is not lighter then air, and thus does not form a protective layer. You obviously never go outside, as if you open the front door you will notice a significant movement of air. This movement of air is actually called wind. Wind is constantly stirring up the air around the globe, meaning no still pockets of air are left for co2 to form. Secondly, the saturation level of CO2 in the general atmospehere would be a hell of a lot less (around 30% being generous) to that of the inside of a very still secondary fermenter, where the CO2 levels would probably reach a good 60-70%.

Step outside your front door before commenting about the world...

 

[deadly]

wow, dig up an old thread and have a go at someone on your first post

 

[DJR]

Secondly, the saturation level of CO2 in the general atmospehere would be a hell of a lot less (around 30% being generous) to that of the inside of a very still secondary fermenter, where the CO2 levels would probably reach a good 60-70%.

The CO2 level in the general atmosphere is 300 ppm, or 0.03%.

What's the point of coming on and making a fool of yourself with a personal attack as your first post - great ettiquette.

 

[Duff]

Pint of beer, you obviously think that the inside of an airlocked secondary is the same as "the atmosphere" as you claim that CO2 is not lighter then air, and thus does not form a protective layer. You obviously never go outside, as if you open the front door you will notice a significant movement of air. This movement of air is actually called wind. Wind is constantly stirring up the air around the globe, meaning no still pockets of air are left for co2 to form. Secondly, the saturation level of CO2 in the general atmospehere would be a hell of a lot less (around 30% being generous) to that of the inside of a very still secondary fermenter, where the CO2 levels would probably reach a good 60-70%.

Step outside your front door before commenting about the world...

?

 

[Slurpdog]

While we've got my old thread back up, I'm thinking that a tap to tap transfer from fermanter to cube would be the ideal option to avoid using a racking tube. That way the beer will be transfered directly to the bottom of the cube with no splashing.
Any toughts?

 

[Sammus]

My tap holes are above the bottom of my fermenters, so there probably still would be splashing...

And I CC in cubes with plenty of headspace and have never had something oxidise.... plenty of other problems but not oxidation

 

[Slurpdog]

My tap holes are above the bottom of my fermenters, so there probably still would be splashing...

And I CC in cubes with plenty of headspace and have never had something oxidise.... plenty of other problems but not oxidation

So are mine, but if you start the racking off slowly until the beer level covers the tap hole then you could let her rip from there.

 

[pint of lager]

A molecule in the gaseous state is a very active molecule. It spends its whole time whizzing along in a straight line until it bumps into a solid surface. At this stage it can either end up embedded in that surface, or bounce off merrily on its way. It does not quietly settle. If the surface that the gas molecule hits is fluid, there is a very good chance it will be embedded in that fluid.

A gas molecule very very rarely interacts with other gas molecules. It does not form a layer, unless it is very very cold, around -270 degrees Celsius. Then it turns into a fluid.

Your CO2 in the fermenter will not form a protective layer from the other gases. What does happen during fermentation, is that there is so much CO2 produced, that it purges the headspace of other gas molecules. During fermentation, there is approximately 130 litres of carbon dioxide produced.

Slurpdog, I don't use the tap to tap method, but other members on the forum have mentioned it, and it seems to be a great idea.

During any racking, there will always be some exposure to oxygen and some splashing.