Mardoo
Noob What Craps On A Bit
Well, now, here's something interesting to add to the conversation. Apparently Norway has a whole tradition of fermenting unboiled ales.
10 minute IPAs are good for school night brewing
- Thread starter GrumpyPaul
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Hi guys check this out... http://brulosophy.com/2015/10/08/update-lab-data-on-pils-malt-boil-length-exbeeriment/
Not just Norway, there are various versions of Shati from most of Scandinavia, unboiled maze beers from South America and Sorghum tribal beers from all over Africa, most of the last couple involve someone chewing the grist to provide the Amylase, then spitting the "mash" into a pot. Some of the ones from the Andes involve the use of baby poo at a yeast source...Mardoo said:
People have found lots of ways to get pissed over the millennia, thankfully these days we know a lot more about brewing and can turn out some fairly tasty beer.
Its just a matter of using the basic brewing ingredients properly, that includes doing a sensible boil.
Mark
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
I think the point to be taken is that you can try any and every technique as long as you have an understanding of why and how you achieve the results you do (and the results you want). For example, in Mardoo's link, a very pertinent correlation is shown between beer stability and protein due to short/no boil.
Very different story to blindly following brulosophy or simply trying to cut as many corners as possible but still make booze.
Very different story to blindly following brulosophy or simply trying to cut as many corners as possible but still make booze.
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
10 min boil is a great idea.
Just follow it up with another 5 x 10 minute boils. Personally I like to do 9 or so in a row on the same wort.
Just follow it up with another 5 x 10 minute boils. Personally I like to do 9 or so in a row on the same wort.
Lindsay Dive
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I really cant believe that I have wasted so much time reading all this shit.
Why the **** would you do this?
For God's sake, there are much smarter people out there telling you what to do, and you try to reinvent the wheel.
And may I add, the beer looks like swill.
Why the **** would you do this?
For God's sake, there are much smarter people out there telling you what to do, and you try to reinvent the wheel.
And may I add, the beer looks like swill.
GrumpyPaul
Well-Known Member
Wow Lindsay Dive, what can I say...
Thank you for your informative and supportive post. It's so nice when the "much smarter people" help educate the newbies to learn from their rookie mistakes.
Thank you for your informative and supportive post. It's so nice when the "much smarter people" help educate the newbies to learn from their rookie mistakes.
mofox1
Wubba lubba dub dub!
Where did that dislike button get to?
As for reinventing the wheel, I'd hate to be the poor dumb ******* that came up with "brewing in a bag", or putting wort into containers without chilling down to pitching temp as soon as possible.
Good thing there are people like Lindsay Dave to keep us in line. Right, I'm off to go build my coolship!
Edit: Sigh.. Moderating my language. Much as name calling seemed appropriate, it is somewhat self demeaning too.
As for reinventing the wheel, I'd hate to be the poor dumb ******* that came up with "brewing in a bag", or putting wort into containers without chilling down to pitching temp as soon as possible.
Good thing there are people like Lindsay Dave to keep us in line. Right, I'm off to go build my coolship!
Edit: Sigh.. Moderating my language. Much as name calling seemed appropriate, it is somewhat self demeaning too.
h34r:
Liam_snorkel
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Hey Lindsay, god doesn't exist.
Nobody is trying to say that short boils are better for your beer or ideal, but if you're stuck in a position of trading off precious time for slight potential long term stability issues, well shit what's wrong with people making that call?
Think I'll go brew a no-boil Berliner Weisse.
Nobody is trying to say that short boils are better for your beer or ideal, but if you're stuck in a position of trading off precious time for slight potential long term stability issues, well shit what's wrong with people making that call?
Think I'll go brew a no-boil Berliner Weisse.
OK maybe a bit harsh but he's right. 10 Minute boils are generally a really stupid idea, there are a few exceptions, like the above Berliner Weiss where I have seen ONE recipe (see Wheeler and Protz - Brewing European Beers) for a short boil beer.Lindsay Dive said:
10 minutes simply isn't long enough to achieve the goals of a boil, it wont denature enough protein - matters for more than just shelf life but that's part of the reason, it wont convert enough SMM to DMS and eject it, along with other unwanted aromas - look up half life reaction, 10 minutes isn't really enough time to ensure wort sterilisation...
Once a wort is boiling, given that you have a sensible sized pot, it really doesn't really need much attention, surely you can find something else to do while the beer is boiling. If you need beer so badly that you cant find time to brew the best beer you can, it might be worth thinking about the possibility that you have some substance abuse issues.
Mark
Liam_snorkel
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I reckon most people on AHB would qualify (at least in part) for your last point.
malt junkie
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FTFYMHB said:
I spend most brew days playin with the son, or finishing up the honeydos.
Lindsay Dive
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Correct.MHB said:
GrumpyPaul
Well-Known Member
It would seem that the all-knowing alumni of AHB that have been contributing their wisdom of late have missed the point that this thread evolved into. Whilst it started from a mistake made about 10minute IPAs it evolved pretty quickly into a thread about short boils. It isn’t saying a 10 minute boil s ok...
Here’s an abridged version of this thread.
PART 1
4 years ago a relatively inexperienced AG brewer mistakenly thought a "10 Minute IPA" with all its hop additions at 10 minutes meant he only had to boil for 10 minutes.
PART 2
A whole bunch of helpful forum members pointed out the mistake and provided plenty of helpful and informative explanation and the OP learned a lto without being made to feel stupid or that his beer looked like swill.
PART 3
An enlightening discussion ensued between a number of more experienced brewers about the science and black magic of brewing in relation to the conversion of SMM to DSM that happens in the boil, various types of grain that are suited (or not) to shorter boils. This all led to lots of sharing of knowledge, discussion of what circumstances you could do a shorter than 60 min boil. General consensus was under the right circumstances a min if 30 minute boil was possible.
There is even a very clear post in their that says something to the effect - "Contrary to the thread title - this thread is about short boils NOT 10 minute boils"
PART 4
A number of brewers went off and did a few experimental brews with 30 minute boils and found that it was feasible.
PART 5
The thread stayed fairly dormant for a number of years until recently. Now it seems that despite their valued wisdom and technical contribution a few experienced brewers have missed the point that this thread ISNT recommending a 10 minute boils it OK and have jumped on board peppery their technical advice with some fairly abrupt comments that some have taken as less than helpful.
Message is fine "You need to boil for more than 10 minutes' - the delivery comes across a bit arrogant.
Here’s an abridged version of this thread.
PART 1
4 years ago a relatively inexperienced AG brewer mistakenly thought a "10 Minute IPA" with all its hop additions at 10 minutes meant he only had to boil for 10 minutes.
PART 2
A whole bunch of helpful forum members pointed out the mistake and provided plenty of helpful and informative explanation and the OP learned a lto without being made to feel stupid or that his beer looked like swill.
PART 3
An enlightening discussion ensued between a number of more experienced brewers about the science and black magic of brewing in relation to the conversion of SMM to DSM that happens in the boil, various types of grain that are suited (or not) to shorter boils. This all led to lots of sharing of knowledge, discussion of what circumstances you could do a shorter than 60 min boil. General consensus was under the right circumstances a min if 30 minute boil was possible.
There is even a very clear post in their that says something to the effect - "Contrary to the thread title - this thread is about short boils NOT 10 minute boils"
PART 4
A number of brewers went off and did a few experimental brews with 30 minute boils and found that it was feasible.
PART 5
The thread stayed fairly dormant for a number of years until recently. Now it seems that despite their valued wisdom and technical contribution a few experienced brewers have missed the point that this thread ISNT recommending a 10 minute boils it OK and have jumped on board peppery their technical advice with some fairly abrupt comments that some have taken as less than helpful.
Message is fine "You need to boil for more than 10 minutes' - the delivery comes across a bit arrogant.
droid
somewhere on the slippery slope with a beer in han
Having a laugh at someone else's expense is unhelpful. If I told some kid at footy training that what they did was pretty stupid, they probably wouldn't turn up next week. Being encouraging, being positive is much better for participation in any regard.
The one-liner that doesn't offer any different thought or solution isn't very helpful.
The one-liner that doesn't offer any different thought or solution isn't very helpful.
What intimidates me about brewing is that I know just about enough to know how little I do know.
But brewing like most endeavours is underpinned by hard science, take building a brick building, with a big enough supply of bricks you can build a hell of a lot of different buildings, there is an upper limit on height, go any higher and bricks (or more likely the mortar) will be crushed by the weight above - call this a constraint, if you want to go higher you need to take steps to prevent the whole thing falling down.
You can make unboiled beer, or boil for 10,30,60,90 or even longer, in every case there are consequences, the science of brewing gives us some pretty good indications of what they will be. They are however real, bare in mind that boiling is as the biggest single energy cost in brewing very intensively researched.
Modern breweries using the best malt in history still considers 90minutes de-rigueur for direct fired kettles, 60 minutes or so minimum for steam jacketed kettles with internal calandria and 45 minutes in multimillion dollar merlin or other variable pressure kettles. Don't worry 90-120 minutes is called fast lautering.
BIAB works because it works within the constraints established by understanding how mashing and wort separation work, it too has constraints, depending on which of the many ******* daughters of the original form we are discussing.
Feel free to do what ever the hell you like in your brewery, there are any number of choices you can make but every choice has consequences.
Mark
But brewing like most endeavours is underpinned by hard science, take building a brick building, with a big enough supply of bricks you can build a hell of a lot of different buildings, there is an upper limit on height, go any higher and bricks (or more likely the mortar) will be crushed by the weight above - call this a constraint, if you want to go higher you need to take steps to prevent the whole thing falling down.
You can make unboiled beer, or boil for 10,30,60,90 or even longer, in every case there are consequences, the science of brewing gives us some pretty good indications of what they will be. They are however real, bare in mind that boiling is as the biggest single energy cost in brewing very intensively researched.
Modern breweries using the best malt in history still considers 90minutes de-rigueur for direct fired kettles, 60 minutes or so minimum for steam jacketed kettles with internal calandria and 45 minutes in multimillion dollar merlin or other variable pressure kettles. Don't worry 90-120 minutes is called fast lautering.
BIAB works because it works within the constraints established by understanding how mashing and wort separation work, it too has constraints, depending on which of the many ******* daughters of the original form we are discussing.
Feel free to do what ever the hell you like in your brewery, there are any number of choices you can make but every choice has consequences.
Mark
It's different for commercial breweries though as they need a stable beer that will survive many months of shelf life and probably being mistreated along the way coming in and out of cold storage. Its worth it for them to spend more on production to decrease the risk of a customer receiving a spoiled product.
For a home brewer who is kegging beer that may well last only a couple of days through to a couple of weeks, stability might not be the biggest concern. If the beer tastes good, I can't see the issue in bending the rules of commercial brewing. Horses for courses.
If you're planning on storing you beer longer term, if you have many kegs on tap or many batches in bottles on the go at once, or if you are planning on ageing the beer then obviously you wouldn't sacrifice stability to save a few minutes of boiling.
For a home brewer who is kegging beer that may well last only a couple of days through to a couple of weeks, stability might not be the biggest concern. If the beer tastes good, I can't see the issue in bending the rules of commercial brewing. Horses for courses.
If you're planning on storing you beer longer term, if you have many kegs on tap or many batches in bottles on the go at once, or if you are planning on ageing the beer then obviously you wouldn't sacrifice stability to save a few minutes of boiling.
