Your experience with PET Pressure Fermenters - Open Discussion - feedback invited

[soreba]

Not sure if you know but our gen 3 Fermenter Kings come standard with a 2 inch tri-clover adaptor so there is one of your wishes.

Is it possible in future generations to mold the 2 inch as part of the whole unit? rather than having the threaded component? That way you dont have to deal with the fittings.

 

[CKK]

This is a very good point and one that I also miss.

There is always a trade off when it comes to pric/performance. If that is important to you then stainless will do that for you.

 

[CKK]

Is it possible in future generations to mold the 2 inch as part of the whole unit? rather than having the threaded component? That way you dont have to deal with the fittings.

Yes it is possible but PET is not the ideal material for it.

 

[CKK]

I agree with your points, if the Stubby would allow me to run two at once I would buy 2 as well (would still use the 2 snubnoses I have atm as well)

To your Rota wheels point I think its excellent, Ive had brand name wheels which I have hit the kerb with and they also broke (whole center broke from the barrel) however this prevented the car from flipping and more suspension damage from occurring, but because people haven't expirenced it they blame the product.

Alot more people are getting into homebrew (both beer and spirits) the hobby has never been more accessible but we all need to remember it can also be very dangerous when people don't use good judgement and learn correct process.

Its quite easy to seriously injure yourself at many steps of a brewday, I would say these plastic unitanks are not for a new brewer in my view as you really cant take shortcuts with them.

Not to say that stainless doesnt also have disadvantages but I wouldnt recommend a stainless fermentor to a new brewer either

Think you are confusing the Stubby which is not something we have. However next week our 30 litre Chubby will be available. The plastic uni tanks which we supply do not blow up unless you deliberately close off the PRV. Even then the failure is unlikely to generate flying debris that can hurt someone.

 

[CKK]

I personally don't think the port needs to be big enough to fit your hand inside. If you're going to use these tanks, you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't make yourself up a cheap pond pump CIP system. With the Atomic ABC or PBW or what ever percarb cleaner you prefer, I literally take my Snub Nose, pop it over the outlet upside down on my bucket blaster (the one from KL and KK are the same thing really) and let it clean for 10 minutes. I then rinse with the garden hose and bobs your uncle.

Crystal clean, no beer stone, no nothing. By having a large opening, you are only encouraging people who don't know better to stick their hands inside and clean it. This isn't needed, and will create micro abrasions for infections to live in. So, I don't see the point of a bigger opening. And if you look at the units which are having issues, they have big openings up the top. The larger they are, the weaker that point. It's why you don't see an airplane with floor to ceiling windows.

Just my opinion, and everyone is different, but if you want to design a product that is safe, and minimises the risks to people who don't know better, I think a smaller opening is the right move. The cone shape does indeed provide a better volume of clean beer at the end of ferment, however it comes at the price of being taller. As such, the rounder will suit some people, and the snub others.

Also, I don't think you should add a separate blow off port, as the vast majority of people who use these, ferment under pressure. This keeps the krausen down, and if you stick to the limits indicated on the fermenter, you won't need a blow off. If you do feel like you absolutely need one, then simply rigging a disconnect up to the gas post with a piece of beer line is a blow off done. One less opening / possible weak point.



In relation to producing them to a 'lower' pressure rating, I don't see the point. If it's rated to 2.4 bar or 35PSI and people want to run on the knife edge that's up to them. They also shouldn't undergo 'catastrophic failure' unless you have gone past the 2 year mark and have not had it pressure tested as it tells you to do ON THE FERMENTOR.

So, why create a product that is PET, light weight, with gas posts and liquid posts and then only construct it to handle low pressure? Doesn't make sense. It's like saying all cars should only have enough power to reach, and maintain 110kmh. As that is the upper limit. Why bother having more powerful cars? You don't need it, and people only end up driving at the end of the power range, and sliding their cars into gutters. It's not the cars fault, it's the driver.

That is very much our thought and design process. It must be over engineered but should not be required to go those limits in operation. The stronger the better for use and longevity. Our tanks will easily go to two years and they are very reasonably priced to replace unlike other offerings on the market. Not having to import them means we can sell them at a low enough cost to make a two year replacement a decent option. Best of all you can convert the old tank to a grain storage unit for your malt.

 

[CKK]

I don't have a CIP system yep but am planning on getting one. Unfortunately the spray ball was out of stock on my last kk order. There are other reasons for wanting a wider lid such as using hop tubes. I'm not sure mine would fit down the opening in the fkj or new stubby. The fermentersaurus has a bigger lid, so it is doable. As KK ceo points out above they have one that's the same size as the FZ. If a fermenter has a bigger lid than you need/want, there's not really a problem. If its smaller than what you need/want there is a problem.

If you use our gen 3 lids the thread is already there for the CIP spray ball. Also we have a washing kit available shortly if you don’t already have a keg washer.

 

[CKK]

You have a Fermzilla! Do you feel dirty?
Good to know that the lid fits, could be a good upgrade for me.

Why would I feel dirty? It was brought to me by someone who was shocked by the stress cracks in the neck and they were interested to know why. Its obvious the material is reheated PET and so the stress zone develops in the neck region. Reheated PET also has a lot less strength as the polymer chains get shortened.

As engineers we are always interested to see how things are made and how they work. In this case I believe that what we make here in Australia is a long way ahead on quality than what is being imported in the way of PET Vessels.

Take a close look at the pic and you will see what I am talking about. The person who brought it to me said he would not use it under pressure so I gave him one of our Snubbies to alleviate his disappointment.


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[clickeral]

Think you are confusing the Stubby which is not something we have. However next week our 30 litre Chubby will be available. The plastic uni tanks which we supply do not blow up unless you deliberately close off the PRV. Even then the failure is unlikely to generate flying debris that can hurt someone.

Keen to see the Chubby details and yes for some reason thought it was called a stubby :s

 

[CKK]

Keen to see the Chubby details and yes for some reason thought it was called a stubby :s

The one on the left is the Chubby. Should have it up on the website next week with all the details. Basically same idea as the Fermenter King Junior but in a squat 30 litre implementation.

 

[BKBrews]

Yes it is possible but PET is not the ideal material for it.

Is there another way to incorporate different plastics with PET? e.g. if there is a better material, can it all be moulded together so that it is one piece with a tri-clover on the bottom? I totally agree with Soreba, I think one piece with the tri-clover would be a dream.

How much will the chubby cost? I have been looking at the king juniors for ages (so cheap), but haven't pulled the trigger because I just wanted that extra size.

Am about to send you that email as well in regards to the other stuff I want

 

[mynameisrodney]

There is always a trade off when it comes to pric/performance. If that is important to you then stainless will do that for you.

It's not important enough to make me go out and buy stainless. I understand the limitation. It's just a case of me needing to remember not clean it using hot tap only on autopilot.

If you use our gen 3 lids the thread is already there for the CIP spray ball. Also we have a washing kit available shortly if you don’t already have a keg washer.

Yeah its the spray ball itself I'm after, which appears to still be out of stock.

 

[CKK]

Is there another way to incorporate different plastics with PET? e.g. if there is a better material, can it all be moulded together so that it is one piece with a tri-clover on the bottom? I totally agree with Soreba, I think one piece with the tri-clover would be a dream.

How much will the chubby cost? I have been looking at the king juniors for ages (so cheap), but haven't pulled the trigger because I just wanted that extra size.

Am about to send you that email as well in regards to the other stuff I want

It would need a pretty expensive mold change so unless there is massive demand ......

 

[CKK]

It's not important enough to make me go out and buy stainless. I understand the limitation. It's just a case of me needing to remember not clean it using hot tap only on autopilot.



Yeah its the spray ball itself I'm after, which appears to still be out of stock.

Not sure why it’s not showing up as I know we have a small number. Just pm me and I should be able to organise one for you.

 

[CKK]

It's not important enough to make me go out and buy stainless. I understand the limitation. It's just a case of me needing to remember not clean it using hot tap only on autopilot.



Yeah its the spray ball itself I'm after, which appears to still be out of stock.

 

[darrenhayes]

PET has a very small market, people try it and move on. Recycled landfill that will again become landfill. The CEO paints a picture of caring and duty of care, meh. If he truely backed his written word why ask the mouths your feeding.

 

[kadmium]

PET has a very small market, people try it and move on. Recycled landfill that will again become landfill. The CEO paints a picture of caring and duty of care, meh. If he truely backed his written word why ask the mouths your feeding.

What are you talking about? Make a vague sweeping generalisation about people not sticking to PET? And landfill?

 

[CKK]

PET has a very small market, people try it and move on. Recycled landfill that will again become landfill. The CEO paints a picture of caring and duty of care, meh. If he truely backed his written word why ask the mouths your feeding.

What are you talking about? Make a vague sweeping generalisation about people not sticking to PET? And landfill?

Well at least our tanks can be re-incarnated as grain storage silos where they will give many years of good service. The PET is also recyclable. Of course we want to do the right thing environmentally. That is why we invented the grainary idea.

 

[Grmblz]

What are you talking about? Make a vague sweeping generalisation about people not sticking to PET? And landfill?

I think he's yearning for the old days (pining for the fjords) time moves on, things change, and some folk resent it.
Old hands are a bit like teachers, there's the kindly understanding ones that help you through the problems you don't understand, and then there's the ones that rap you over the knuckles because of a spelling mistake.

 

[kadmium]

Grmblz I think you're a kindly type. Sweet and just misunderstood!

As for Darrenhayes, I just don't get how you can make such a big claim and then not provide any evidence. I would think with all the PET fermentation vessels being sold over seas by both KK and KL and the huge surge lately, its the opposite. And if you want to talk about waste, and environmental responsibility then I think buying a single fermenter and using it for 2 years saves thousands of bottles from the landfill or recycling.

Also, to talk about people treating it as a fad, and accusing a company asking for feedback as anything other than not caring is downright moronic.

There are plenty of other things to accuse KK CEO of, but asking for feedback from customers is not one. Some people just have an axe to grind and are willing to make themselves look like a total ******** to do it. Grind grind Darren.

 

[CKK]

Well what an interesting evening I had yesterday. It seems my efforts to try and undo the confusion in end user's minds about PET tanks and their different qualities was very useful to quite a number of you who contacted me subsequently. My reason for opening up this sort of discussion is that a lot of people are thinking Fermentasaurus but then confusing it to the point that similar looking products are equivalent or even from the same source. So our efforts are concentrated on what kind of burst pressure our PET vessels achieve, how they are protected and how best to use them. Working with pressure in Fermentation is not really all that hard if one follows some basic rules and it definitely helps brewers to make better beers. It is also important that people are aware that "FERMENTASAURUS" is a registered and protected trademark which belongs to Keg King. Our tank products are made on highly specialised equipment which allows large size tanks to be made in one operation rather than the two stage processes involving the reheating of formed PET vessels to then blow them into larger vessels. Reheating PET has a serious disadvantage in that it reduces the strength of the end product because it messes with the chain structure of the polymer. So happy to answer any of your questions and help you get more from your favourite pastime. If it gets real technical then I will get help from our team so bear with me.